[Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in Moscow?

Wed May 9 20:18:36 PDT 2007

I strongly urge people as well to check out the websites Debbie Gray listed. That is the surest way to demonstrate that Saundra Lund doesn't understand that Moscow rental rents are not affordable to their $5.87 an hour wage earners. 

  According to these two sites she linked;

  50% of Latah County residents cannot afford a 2 bedroom apartment. 
  http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID

  46% of Orange County residents cannot afford a 2 bedroom apartment.
  http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL

  According to these same two sites;

  The average Latah County resident must work 72 hours to afford their rent.
  The average Orange County resident only works 48 hours to afford rent. 

  Last time I checked, 72 hours of work is much harder than 48 hours of work. 

  Now in all fairness, a minimum wage worker would have to work harder in Orange County than in Latah to afford housing. But of course there are not that many people working for actual minimum wage in Orange County, people work for market rates. 

  In Latah, the average renter only earns a wage of $5.87 an hour. In Orange County that average renter wage is $13.09 an hour, or 236% higher. Yet the rent is not even 200% higher. 

  The second issue here is that Ms. Lund claimed I was liar for saying that the average household income in Orange County was about $65,000 a year. Yet the site she claims makes me a liar, points to the figure being $57,400, or just $7600 a year difference. Saundra, on the other hand, claimed the average household income was under just over $35,000 a year, or about $22,600 off. 

  Let me also include that Moscow's per household income is skewed because more housing units have more wage earners/adults and more people per unit. Also is the fact that Moscow's housing age, that is the average age of a housing units, is older than many other cities, particularly fast growing ones like ones in Orange County that keep building new housing units. 

  So I will let the people on Vision 2020 decide if they would like to make $13.09 an hour and pay $800 a month for a 2 bedroom, or if they think making $5.87 an hour and paying $575 a month for a 2 bedroom is a better deal. I personally would rather only work 48 hours a month for rent than 72. 

  I can appreciate that Saundra, sitting in the upper income bracket in Moscow, would feel that Moscow is very affordable. But put her as a checker at the Co-Op and she might feel differently about rental rates in Moscow. 

  Best,

  Donovan  

Saundra Lund <sslund at roadrunner.com> wrote:

  Visionaries:

I apologize in advance for bringing this topic back up & risking drawing
Donovan's ad hominem attacks yet again, but it really bothers me that
Donovan jumps at every opportunity -- real or imagined -- in attempts to
make Moscow & Latah County look bad.

In this instance, he repeatedly tried to make the case that housing in
Orlando, FL was more affordable than here in Latah County.

In case there's anyone out there who might not have caught the errors in
Donovan's arguments, I invite you to check out:
http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID
(or http://tinyurl.com/ypk76y)
AND
http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL
(or http://tinyurl.com/29djtk)

No matter what smoke & mirrors Donovan ill-advisedly tries to use to portray
our area in a negative light, rental housing is more affordable right here
in Latah County than it is in Orange County, FL :-) 

I doubt that surprises anyone, and I again reiterate that I vehemently
dispute Donovan's claim that "we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow
housing is least affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the
country." Please feel free to poke around the site Debbie Gray provided
(http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/) to compare Latah County to the locations
of your choosing.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:38 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in Moscow?

Saundra,

You wrote: 
"Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion may be valid, your data is
flawed . . ."

While I am pleased that I don't meet your definition of a reasonable person,
my interpretation of the above statement is an agreement on the conclusion.
If it isn't, perhaps you can explain the sentence. 

Second, I agreed with you that parts of the information I presented was
flawed and explained how I arrived at that information. So to say I am
covering it up, is a flat out lie on your part.

Finally, for you to attack my data set by trying to disprove it by using an
8- 9 year old data set is rather disingenuous to say the least. 

Best,

Donovan

Saundra Lund wrote:

Donovan,

In part, you wrote:
"Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing
is least
affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country."

Uh . . . no, absolutely not, Donovan, wherever did you get such a
screwy
idea??? It really is slimy of you to say such a thing & shows that
you'll
stop at nothing -- including misrepresenting facts, relying on
flawed data,
and flat-out making things up -- to make whatever point you want to
make
here. Just to be perfectly clear for you, no *reasonable* person
would read
my very limited response to you and conclude you and I "arrive at
the same
conclusions that Moscow housing is least affordable in comparisons
to most
other cities around the country."

I responded to your initial post because I thought perhaps your
errors were
genuine rather than calculated. I can see now that I was wrong.

I'll leave it to others willing to actually *use* their critical
thinking
skills to see the flaws in the rest of your post. I'm done -- I have
no
interest in continuing this discussion with you, who will stoop
lower than
low to make your fabricated point on this.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through
life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:00 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in
Moscow?

Saundra,

Thanks for the response. You are correct that my conclusions were
correct
but some of my information was flawed. However, so is the data of
the
sources that you cited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho

That data was taken from:

http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf
http://censtats.census.gov/data/ID/1601654550.pdf

That data was gathered in 1999, or 8 years ago!

If you examine the data of:
http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf

Look at the average (mode) income (not medium) and adjust for 8
years of
inflation, you will find an average income (mode) of about
$65,000-$70,000
per household. 

Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing
is least
affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country. 

Best,

Donovan

Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion may be valid, your data is
flawed
because you're comparing apples & oranges. As you know, you've
jumped on
people when you've thought they made the same mistake :-)

In addition, please cite your source for your data that the average
household income in Orlando is $70,000 -- that's about DOUBLE what
the US
census indicates.

It seems to me you either need to compare Moscow to Orlando (both
county
seats, BTW) or Latah County to Orange County. Instead, you've
compared
Latah County to Orlando.

For those interested in the accurate comparison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho
"The median income for a household in the county was $32,524, and
the median
income for a family was $46,303. Males had a median income of
$34,734 versus
$24,886 for females. The per capita income for the county was
$16,690. About
7.90% of families and 16.70% of the population were below the
poverty line,
including 10.20% of those under age 18 and 5.40% of those age 65 or
over."

AND
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida
"The median income for a household in the county was $41,311, and
the median
income for a family was $47,159. Males had a median income of
$32,053 versus
$25,402 for females. The per capita income for the county was
$20,916. About
8.80% of families and 12.10% of the population were below the
poverty line,
including 16.30% of those under age 18 and 9.30% of those age 65 or
over."

OR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_Idaho
"The median income for a household in the city was $26,884, and the
median
income for a family was $46,331. Males had a median income of
$35,494 versus
$24,560 for females. The per capita income for the city was $14,930.
About
9.5% of families and 22.4% of the population were below the poverty
line,
including 8.2% of those under age 18 and 4.5% of those age 65 or
over."

AND
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida
"The median income for a household in the city was $35,732, and the
median
income for a family was $40,648. Males had a median income of
$30,866 versus
$25,267 for females. The per capita income for the city was $21,216.
About
13.3% of families and 15.9% of the population were below the poverty
line,
including 27.0% of those under age 18 and 12.6% of those age 65 or
over."

HTH,
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through
life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:29 AM
To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in
Moscow?

Latah's average household income is about $30K a year. In Orlando it
is
about $70K. So this house is actually more affordable to the people
of
Orlando than a Moscow house is to the people in Moscow.

Best,

Donovan

Tom Hansen wrote:

Open House in America
http://www.parade.com/WAL/slideshow/open-house-01.html

Seeya round town, Moscow.

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

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=======================================================
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serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
http://www.fsr.net 
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________________________________

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, 
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
http://www.fsr.net 
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

---------------------------------
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 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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