[Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in Moscow?

Tue May 8 22:08:46 PDT 2007

Visionaries:

I apologize in advance for bringing this topic back up & risking drawing
Donovan's ad hominem attacks yet again, but it really bothers me that
Donovan jumps at every opportunity -- real or imagined -- in attempts to
make Moscow & Latah County look bad.

In this instance, he repeatedly tried to make the case that housing in
Orlando, FL was more affordable than here in Latah County.

In case there's anyone out there who might not have caught the errors in
Donovan's arguments, I invite you to check out:
http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID
(or http://tinyurl.com/ypk76y)
AND
http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL
(or http://tinyurl.com/29djtk)

No matter what smoke & mirrors Donovan ill-advisedly tries to use to portray
our area in a negative light, rental housing is more affordable right here
in Latah County than it is in Orange County, FL  :-)  

I doubt that surprises anyone, and I again reiterate that I vehemently
dispute Donovan's claim that "we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow
housing is least affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the
country."  Please feel free to poke around the site Debbie Gray provided
(http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/) to compare Latah County to the locations
of your choosing.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:38 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in Moscow?

Saundra,

You wrote: 
"Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion may be valid, your data is
flawed . . ."

While I am pleased that I don't meet your definition of a reasonable person,
my interpretation of the above statement is an agreement on the conclusion.
If it isn't, perhaps you can explain the sentence. 

Second, I agreed with you that parts of the information I presented was
flawed and explained how I arrived at that information. So to say I am
covering it up, is a flat out lie on your part.

Finally, for you to attack my data set by trying to disprove it by using an
8- 9 year old data set is rather disingenuous to say the least. 

Best,

Donovan

Saundra Lund <sslund at roadrunner.com> wrote:

	Donovan,

	In part, you wrote:
	"Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing
is least
	affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country."

	Uh . . . no, absolutely not, Donovan, wherever did you get such a
screwy
	idea??? It really is slimy of you to say such a thing & shows that
you'll
	stop at nothing -- including misrepresenting facts, relying on
flawed data,
	and flat-out making things up -- to make whatever point you want to
make
	here. Just to be perfectly clear for you, no *reasonable* person
would read
	my very limited response to you and conclude you and I "arrive at
the same
	conclusions that Moscow housing is least affordable in comparisons
to most
	other cities around the country."

	I responded to your initial post because I thought perhaps your
errors were
	genuine rather than calculated. I can see now that I was wrong.

	I'll leave it to others willing to actually *use* their critical
thinking
	skills to see the flaws in the rest of your post. I'm done -- I have
no
	interest in continuing this discussion with you, who will stoop
lower than
	low to make your fabricated point on this.

	Saundra Lund
	Moscow, ID

	The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
	nothing.
	- Edmund Burke

	***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through
life plus
	70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
outside
	the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
	author.*****

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
	Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:00 PM
	To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'
	Subject: RE: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in
Moscow?

	Saundra,

	Thanks for the response. You are correct that my conclusions were
correct
	but some of my information was flawed. However, so is the data of
the
	sources that you cited:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho

	That data was taken from:

	http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf
	http://censtats.census.gov/data/ID/1601654550.pdf

	That data was gathered in 1999, or 8 years ago!

	If you examine the data of:
	http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf

	Look at the average (mode) income (not medium) and adjust for 8
years of
	inflation, you will find an average income (mode) of about
$65,000-$70,000
	per household. 

	Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing
is least
	affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country. 

	Best,

	Donovan

	Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion may be valid, your data is
	flawed
	because you're comparing apples & oranges. As you know, you've
	jumped on
	people when you've thought they made the same mistake :-)

	In addition, please cite your source for your data that the average
	household income in Orlando is $70,000 -- that's about DOUBLE what
	the US
	census indicates.

	It seems to me you either need to compare Moscow to Orlando (both
	county
	seats, BTW) or Latah County to Orange County. Instead, you've
	compared
	Latah County to Orlando.

	For those interested in the accurate comparison:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho
	"The median income for a household in the county was $32,524, and
	the median
	income for a family was $46,303. Males had a median income of
	$34,734 versus
	$24,886 for females. The per capita income for the county was
	$16,690. About
	7.90% of families and 16.70% of the population were below the
	poverty line,
	including 10.20% of those under age 18 and 5.40% of those age 65 or
	over."

	AND
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida
	"The median income for a household in the county was $41,311, and
	the median
	income for a family was $47,159. Males had a median income of
	$32,053 versus
	$25,402 for females. The per capita income for the county was
	$20,916. About
	8.80% of families and 12.10% of the population were below the
	poverty line,
	including 16.30% of those under age 18 and 9.30% of those age 65 or
	over."

	OR

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_Idaho
	"The median income for a household in the city was $26,884, and the
	median
	income for a family was $46,331. Males had a median income of
	$35,494 versus
	$24,560 for females. The per capita income for the city was $14,930.
	About
	9.5% of families and 22.4% of the population were below the poverty
	line,
	including 8.2% of those under age 18 and 4.5% of those age 65 or
	over."

	AND
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida
	"The median income for a household in the city was $35,732, and the
	median
	income for a family was $40,648. Males had a median income of
	$30,866 versus
	$25,267 for females. The per capita income for the city was $21,216.
	About
	13.3% of families and 15.9% of the population were below the poverty
	line,
	including 27.0% of those under age 18 and 12.6% of those age 65 or
	over."

	HTH,
	Saundra Lund
	Moscow, ID

	The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
	to do
	nothing.
	- Edmund Burke

	***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through
	life plus
	70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
	outside
	the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
	author.*****

	-----Original Message-----
	From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
	[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
	On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
	Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:29 AM
	To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020
	Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in
	Moscow?

	Latah's average household income is about $30K a year. In Orlando it
	is
	about $70K. So this house is actually more affordable to the people
	of
	Orlando than a Moscow house is to the people in Moscow.

	Best,

	Donovan

	Tom Hansen wrote:

	Open House in America
	http://www.parade.com/WAL/slideshow/open-house-01.html

	Seeya round town, Moscow.

	Tom Hansen
	Moscow, Idaho

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	Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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	________________________________

	Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
	Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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	=======================================================
	List services made available by First Step Internet, 
	serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
	http://www.fsr.net 
	mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
	=======================================================

________________________________

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc
=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM->  