<div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I strongly urge people as well to check out the websites Debbie Gray listed. That is the surest way to demonstrate that Saundra Lund doesn't understand that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City> rental rents are not affordable to their $5.87 an hour wage earners. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">According to these two sites she linked;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">50% of Latah County residents cannot afford a 2 bedroom apartment.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A href="http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID">http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">46% of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> residents cannot afford a 2 bedroom apartment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A href="http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL">http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">According to these same two sites;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The average <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Latah</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> resident must work 72 hours to afford their rent.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The average <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> resident only works 48 hours to afford rent. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Last time I checked, 72 hours of work is much harder than 48 hours of work. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now in all fairness, a minimum wage worker would have to work harder in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> than in Latah to afford housing. But of course there are not that many people working for actual minimum wage in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, people work for market rates. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In Latah, the average renter only earns a wage of $5.87 an hour. In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
that average renter wage is $13.09 an hour, or 236% higher. Yet the rent is not even 200% higher. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The second issue here is that Ms. Lund claimed I was liar for saying that the average household income in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Orange</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> was about $65,000 a year. Yet the site she claims makes me a liar, points to the figure being $57,400, or just $7600 a year difference. Saundra, on the other hand, claimed the average household income was under just over $35,000 a year, or about $22,600 off. </SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Let me also include that <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City>'s per household income is skewed because more housing units have more wage earners/adults and more people per unit. Also is the fact that Moscow's housing age, that is the average age of a housing units, is older than many other cities, particularly fast growing ones like ones in Orange County that keep building new housing units. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So I will let the people on Vision 2020 decide if they would like to make $13.09 an hour and pay $800 a month for a 2 bedroom, or if they think making $5.87 an hour and paying $575 a month for a 2 bedroom is a better deal. I personally would rather only work 48 hours a month for rent than 72. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I can appreciate that Saundra, sitting in the upper income bracket in <st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</st1:City>, would feel that <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City> is very affordable. But put her as a checker at the Co-Op and she might feel differently about rental rates in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City>. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Donovan <o:p></o:p></SPAN></div> <div> <div><BR><B><I>Saundra Lund <sslund@roadrunner.com></I></B> wrote:</div></div> <BLOCKQUOTE
class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Visionaries:<BR><BR>I apologize in advance for bringing this topic back up & risking drawing<BR>Donovan's ad hominem attacks yet again, but it really bothers me that<BR>Donovan jumps at every opportunity -- real or imagined -- in attempts to<BR>make Moscow & Latah County look bad.<BR><BR>In this instance, he repeatedly tried to make the case that housing in<BR>Orlando, FL was more affordable than here in Latah County.<BR><BR>In case there's anyone out there who might not have caught the errors in<BR>Donovan's arguments, I invite you to check out:<BR>http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=571&state=ID<BR>(or http://tinyurl.com/ypk76y)<BR>AND<BR>http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/data.cfm?getcounty=on&county=359&state=FL<BR>(or http://tinyurl.com/29djtk)<BR><BR>No matter what smoke & mirrors Donovan ill-advisedly tries to use to
portray<BR>our area in a negative light, rental housing is more affordable right here<BR>in Latah County than it is in Orange County, FL :-) <BR><BR>I doubt that surprises anyone, and I again reiterate that I vehemently<BR>dispute Donovan's claim that "we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow<BR>housing is least affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the<BR>country." Please feel free to poke around the site Debbie Gray provided<BR>(http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/) to compare Latah County to the locations<BR>of your choosing.<BR><BR><BR>Saundra Lund<BR>Moscow, ID<BR><BR>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<BR>nothing.<BR>- Edmund Burke<BR><BR>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life plus<BR>70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<BR>the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<BR>author.*****<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com] <BR>Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:38 PM<BR>To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in Moscow?<BR><BR>Saundra,<BR><BR>You wrote: <BR>"Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion may be valid, your data is<BR>flawed . . ."<BR><BR>While I am pleased that I don't meet your definition of a reasonable person,<BR>my interpretation of the above statement is an agreement on the conclusion.<BR>If it isn't, perhaps you can explain the sentence. <BR><BR>Second, I agreed with you that parts of the information I presented was<BR>flawed and explained how I arrived at that information. So to say I am<BR>covering it up, is a flat out lie on your part.<BR><BR>Finally, for you to attack my data set by trying to disprove it by using an<BR>8- 9 year old data set is rather disingenuous to say the least. <BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Donovan<BR><BR>Saundra Lund
<SSLUND@ROADRUNNER.COM>wrote:<BR><BR>Donovan,<BR><BR>In part, you wrote:<BR>"Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing<BR>is least<BR>affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country."<BR><BR>Uh . . . no, absolutely not, Donovan, wherever did you get such a<BR>screwy<BR>idea??? It really is slimy of you to say such a thing & shows that<BR>you'll<BR>stop at nothing -- including misrepresenting facts, relying on<BR>flawed data,<BR>and flat-out making things up -- to make whatever point you want to<BR>make<BR>here. Just to be perfectly clear for you, no *reasonable* person<BR>would read<BR>my very limited response to you and conclude you and I "arrive at<BR>the same<BR>conclusions that Moscow housing is least affordable in comparisons<BR>to most<BR>other cities around the country."<BR><BR>I responded to your initial post because I thought perhaps your<BR>errors were<BR>genuine rather than calculated. I can see now that I was
wrong.<BR><BR>I'll leave it to others willing to actually *use* their critical<BR>thinking<BR>skills to see the flaws in the rest of your post. I'm done -- I have<BR>no<BR>interest in continuing this discussion with you, who will stoop<BR>lower than<BR>low to make your fabricated point on this.<BR><BR><BR>Saundra Lund<BR>Moscow, ID<BR><BR>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<BR>to do<BR>nothing.<BR>- Edmund Burke<BR><BR>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through<BR>life plus<BR>70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce<BR>outside<BR>the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<BR>author.*****<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com] <BR>Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:00 PM<BR>To: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'<BR>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in<BR>Moscow?<BR><BR>Saundra,<BR><BR>Thanks for
the response. You are correct that my conclusions were<BR>correct<BR>but some of my information was flawed. However, so is the data of<BR>the<BR>sources that you cited:<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho<BR><BR><BR>That data was taken from:<BR><BR>http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf<BR>http://censtats.census.gov/data/ID/1601654550.pdf<BR><BR>That data was gathered in 1999, or 8 years ago!<BR><BR>If you examine the data of:<BR>http://censtats.census.gov/data/FL/390125960.pdf<BR><BR>Look at the average (mode) income (not medium) and adjust for 8<BR>years of<BR>inflation, you will find an average income (mode) of about<BR>$65,000-$70,000<BR>per household. <BR><BR>Nonetheless, we arrive at the same conclusions that Moscow housing<BR>is least<BR>affordable in comparisons to most other cities around the country. <BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Donovan<BR><BR>Hmm . . . Donovan, while your conclusion
may be valid, your data is<BR>flawed<BR>because you're comparing apples & oranges. As you know, you've<BR>jumped on<BR>people when you've thought they made the same mistake :-)<BR><BR>In addition, please cite your source for your data that the average<BR>household income in Orlando is $70,000 -- that's about DOUBLE what<BR>the US<BR>census indicates.<BR><BR>It seems to me you either need to compare Moscow to Orlando (both<BR>county<BR>seats, BTW) or Latah County to Orange County. Instead, you've<BR>compared<BR>Latah County to Orlando.<BR><BR>For those interested in the accurate comparison:<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_County,_Idaho<BR>"The median income for a household in the county was $32,524, and<BR>the median<BR>income for a family was $46,303. Males had a median income of<BR>$34,734 versus<BR>$24,886 for females. The per capita income for the county was<BR>$16,690. About<BR>7.90% of families and 16.70% of the population were below the<BR>poverty
line,<BR>including 10.20% of those under age 18 and 5.40% of those age 65 or<BR>over."<BR><BR>AND<BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_Florida<BR>"The median income for a household in the county was $41,311, and<BR>the median<BR>income for a family was $47,159. Males had a median income of<BR>$32,053 versus<BR>$25,402 for females. The per capita income for the county was<BR>$20,916. About<BR>8.80% of families and 12.10% of the population were below the<BR>poverty line,<BR>including 16.30% of those under age 18 and 9.30% of those age 65 or<BR>over."<BR><BR>OR<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_Idaho<BR>"The median income for a household in the city was $26,884, and the<BR>median<BR>income for a family was $46,331. Males had a median income of<BR>$35,494 versus<BR>$24,560 for females. The per capita income for the city was $14,930.<BR>About<BR>9.5% of families and 22.4% of the population were below the poverty<BR>line,<BR>including 8.2% of those under age
18 and 4.5% of those age 65 or<BR>over."<BR><BR>AND<BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida<BR>"The median income for a household in the city was $35,732, and the<BR>median<BR>income for a family was $40,648. Males had a median income of<BR>$30,866 versus<BR>$25,267 for females. The per capita income for the city was $21,216.<BR>About<BR>13.3% of families and 15.9% of the population were below the poverty<BR>line,<BR>including 27.0% of those under age 18 and 12.6% of those age 65 or<BR>over."<BR><BR><BR>HTH,<BR>Saundra Lund<BR>Moscow, ID<BR><BR>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<BR>to do<BR>nothing.<BR>- Edmund Burke<BR><BR>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through<BR>life plus<BR>70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce<BR>outside<BR>the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<BR>author.*****<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<BR>[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<BR>On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold<BR>Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:29 AM<BR>To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] So You Think Houses are Expensive in<BR>Moscow?<BR><BR>Latah's average household income is about $30K a year. In Orlando it<BR>is<BR>about $70K. So this house is actually more affordable to the people<BR>of<BR>Orlando than a Moscow house is to the people in Moscow.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Donovan<BR><BR>Tom Hansen wrote:<BR><BR>Open House in America<BR>http://www.parade.com/WAL/slideshow/open-house-01.html<BR><BR>Seeya round town, Moscow.<BR><BR>Tom Hansen<BR>Moscow, Idaho<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net
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