[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: church and paintball

[Ted Moffett]

All-

Given the subject heading of "church and paintball," and the subsequent
discussion of knowing fantasy from reality when playing sports or games, it
seems appropriate to point out that many of the absolutely held beliefs
that organized religions aggressively promote, represent far more of an
encouragement of a breakdown of the fantasy/reality boundary, than playing
paintball could ever inspire.

I'm far more concerned about religions that teach that women must
be subservient to men, that Gay individuals are deserving of punishment,
that the scientific evidence for evolution or the age of the solar system
and Earth must be denied, that the second coming is at hand, thus the
Earth's environment is secondary, that only one book is the true revealed
message from God, and other books claiming the same are delusional, that the
heretics or infidels that follow the delusional book must be defeated,
and that martyrdom in this cause guarantees a place in heaven, etc., than I
am of churches encouraging paint ball games, unless this is part of their
training to defeat the heretics or infidels.  When people are willing to die
in terrorist attacks, or ignore catastrophic threats to the
Earth's environment, due to firmly held religious beliefs that are almost
certainly a fantasy, the breakdown of the fantasy/reality boundary is a very
serious problem threatening humanity.

The Temple of Reason, anyone?  I don't agree with all of Sam Harris's
arguments or beliefs, but I applaud his courage to address these problems
head on:

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/369_Harris.pdf

Ted Moffett


On 7/1/07, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Ellen Roskovich wrote:
>
>  *Video games?  Don't get me started!  Fantasy and reality. . . some never
> get it.*
>
>
> If they "never get it", then they have a problem already.  If the line
> between fantasy and reality is already blurred for them, then any stimulus
> might set them off or cause an accident.  A video game, a physical group
> game like paintball, a good book, a movie, or simply their imagination can
> do it.  The problem is not the video game as "enabler", it's their inability
> to determines what's real.
>
> I'm fed up with the Jack Thompsons of the world (google him if you don't
> know who he is).  He thinks Grand Theft Auto is a "cop killing simulator".
> What gets me is the people that say these things have never played a video
> game more complicated than solitaire or bejeweled in their lives.  Frankly,
> it makes me wonder if they are the ones with the problem with discerning
> fantasy from reality.
>
> I've played many video games.  I've shot fireballs at cacodemons, blown up
> gangsters cars, shot soldiers with a sniper rifle, run over aliens with an
> all-terrain vehicle, run over pedestrians for points, beaten up a female
> ninja while playing as a purple-haired schoolgirl, and have even chased a
> random person around a map with a baseball bat just for the fun of it.  I've
> also jumped off of multi-story buildings, tried to take on a tank with a
> hand gun, fired a rocket launcher at my feet, and have reversed direction in
> a Nascar race just to see what the player death animations or crash scenes
> look like.  Now, many of you are probably nodding your heads because you've
> found that that explains much about me you could never quite put your finger
> on, but I'd like to believe that it's actually changed my real-life violence
> quotient exactly jack-all.
>
> To tie this into a subject Ted has mentioned in another post, many male
> junior high students get more real-life exposure to establishment-sanctioned
> violence by playing football.  Personally, I don't have a problem with that
> either, but it's more realistic than video games because you are actually
> hitting people with your body instead of pressing left on the left thumb
> joystick while simultaneously holding down the A and X keys.
>
> Here are the only times I can think of when video games have intruded upon
> my normal reality:
>
> 1.  Sometimes while playing Quake with a group of friends my adrenaline
> levels will rise, especially if they keep lobbing grenades at me from high
> places.
>
> 2.  I've found it best not to go for a drive immediately after playing a
> couple of hours of Need for Speed without a break as I tend to drive more
> aggressively than normal.
>
> 3.  I've sometimes had dreams where I am running around a map in Quake,
> with the pixelated graphics and everything.  Usually after a multi-hour
> session of Quake has just been completed.
>
> 4.  When I've just finished playing Tetris, I keep trying to make the
> shapes in my visual field drop and interlock with each other for a few
> seconds.
>
> Anyway, I guess my main point is that people know where the line between
> fantasy and reality is: it's one of the most fundamental concepts they ever
> learn.  Children below a certain age will not and people with actual
> specific psychological problems may not.  Everyone else does, since it's a
> survival trait.  You may pretend that the red glowing burner is cold, but
> reality has a way of asserting itself in those kinds of situations.
>
> Paul
>
>
>  *Here's a "team-building exercise" Ellen-style:  put your team in a canoe
> with a paddle and a life jacket.  You don't hold your own, you lose your
> paddle.  You still don't pull your weight, the other team members throw you
> overboard.   Wow!  Bet we soon have an award winning team!!*
>
> *Hey, folks, don't get too uptight. . . it's just "fantasy". . . .*
>
> *Ellen A. Roskovich *
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> From: *Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> <godshatter at yahoo.com>*
> To: *vision2020 at moscow.com*
> Subject: *Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: church and paintball*
> Date: *Sun, 01 Jul 2007 09:13:39 -0700*
>
> In my opinion, as long as you have a good grasp of the line between
> fantasy and reality it shouldn't be a problem.  In that respect, it's like
> video games.
>
> I've played paintball, and it has more in common with the old games we
> used to play in the woods as boy scouts than it does with actual military
> training or conditioning.  You know it's not real, which completely changes
> the dynamic.  Nobody is drilling you, telling you how you might just kill
> somebody if you screw up, nobody is making it plain that other lives may one
> day depend upon your performance.  It's just fun.
>
> A lot of companies use it as a team-building exercise, because (if you
> want to win) it forces you to rely upon someone else and to be relied upon
> to achieve a goal.  It also enhances your problem-solving skills.  I see no
> conflict with religious groups doing the same thing, myself.
>
> Paul
>
> Ellen Roskovich wrote:
>
>  *Dancing and making joyous noise is a far cry from slithering around in
> the bushes, taking pot shots at your buddies and keeping score on how many
> kills you have.*
>
> *Call me a fuddy duddy if you wish.  No, I'll even do it for you. . . I'm
> a fuddy duddy.  I do not like organized "games" that condition people to
> kill off their fellow humans.  *
>
> *I would cringe at any group organizing this activity for kids and it
> would have opened the door for "discussion" at our household.*
>
> *Ellen A. Roskovich*
>
> **
>
>
>
>
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