[Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sun Apr 29 07:54:42 PDT 2007
I don't expect him to respond to what is basically a loyalty oath
either, nor do I think he ought to feel obliged to.
Paul
Tom Hansen wrote:
>
> Mr. Rumelhart --
>
>
>
> As I have stated before, Sunil has NEVER degraded this country of ours
> (and his). In fact, if you were to search Sunil's postings, you would
> find several instances about his fond memories of undergraduate days
> in California, along with some personal (and extremely favorable)
> reflections of his concerning Idaho.
>
>
>
> That said. I seriously don't see any reason for Sunil to respond to
> the ignorant whims of a Vision 2020 subscriber simply to satisfy that
> subscriber's anxiety.
>
>
>
> Tom Hansen
>
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
> "I think if you are going to attack someone in public, you need to at
> least be willing to meet with them in public in a debate or discussion
> format, otherwise you will rightfully earn the term of a yellow-belly."
>
> - Donovan Arnold (October 4, 2006)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Rumelhart
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:00 AM
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
> Failures
>
>
>
> I would be quite surprised to learn that Sunil doesn't love our
> country. However, I don't know him so how am I to refute that? Sunil
> is more than capable of defending himself if he chooses to. I am
> impressed by him, based upon everything I've read here.
>
> At the end, it boiled down to Donovan wishing that Sunil came out and
> said more positive things about our country. That was a compromise
> that seemed to me to be "fair enough". I'm not defending anything
> else that was said in the exchange.
>
> Why should I bother being conciliatory or irenic if I don't recognize
> honest attempts to reach middle ground?
>
> Paul
>
> P.S. I thought you had made a typo with "irenic" and meant "ironic".
> I was trying to figure that one out until I looked it up and found it
> was a word and that it meant "operating toward peace, moderation, or
> conciliation". I've never come across that word before.
>
> keely emerinemix wrote:
>
> Here's the thing, Paul. I do know the guy, and you're not likely to
> meet too many people with more integrity than Sunil.
>
> I've admired your conciliatory and irenic tone in the past, but
> there's nothing "fair enough" about anything Donovan has said in this
> or any other exchange. I'm not qualified to judge what he does
> deserve, but one thing Donovan doesn't deserve is the benefit of the
> doubt, and I would suggest that Sunil has more than proved, beyond a
> shadow of a doubt, that he is a fine and decent man who loves his country.
>
> keely
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:15:30 -0700
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
> Failures
>
> Fair enough.
>
> I'd think that the fact that he is doing what he can to change what he
> doesn't like is evidence enough that he appreciates this country. But
> I don't know the guy, so I have no way of knowing if that's true or not.
>
> Paul
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> I agree with most of what you said. But I believe there is a
> difference between a citizen genuinely making a constructive criticism
> and someone just out to point out flaws in our government and divide
> people.
>
>
>
> I don't disagree with Sunil's arguments against Bush and our country,
> I just disagree with his motives and dangerous solutions to problems.
>
>
>
> A guy that does nothing but attack the character of our country,
> its uniformed members, and never praising it, ever, raises concerns
> for me.
>
>
>
> I'm saying, it sure would be nice if Sunil could say something nice
> about the country instead of bashing it and supporting its enemy's
> agenda 100% of the time.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Donovan
>
>
>
>
> */Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> An attempt to put this in perspective.
>
> The United States of America differs from some other countries in
> that it is a government of the people, by the people, and for the
> people. Our President, along with all other elected officials, is
> an ordinary citizen who is supposedly carrying a burden in a
> self-less act of devotion to the rest of us. He is not royal, he
> is not a deity, and he is not of an official upper class. He
> works for us. He does not have the license to tell us what is
> "patriotic" and what is not. What he says about it is not Royal
> Decree, religious dogma, nor law. It is the opinion of a fellow
> citizen that coincidentally happens to bring him more personal
> power if you agree with him.
>
> Thus, it makes sense to keep an eye on him and to make sure that
> he is doing what *we* want him to do, not what *he* wants to do.
> If he is doing something that goes against what the people voted
> him in to do, then they are obligated to do something about it.
> To do otherwise would be to turn your back on the idea of a
> representational government. One way of "doing something" about
> it is to make your concerns known publicly. Sunil, and others
> like him, should be commended for not allowing our representative
> to work against our wishes.
>
> Our President is not representing me when he decides that we can
> be allowed to use torture in our daily conduct as a nation, merely
> because he can argue some loopholes in the Geneva conventions.
> Thus, I make this known. He is not representing me when he
> decides that he can spy on our private communications without
> legal warrants, especially when he arrogantly ignores the process
> already in place that is not onerous to get those warrants. Thus,
> I make this known as well. He is not representing me when he
> orders secret camps in other countries to be built to take our
> prisoners to when he wants them tortured without benefit of public
> scrutiny, nor when he uses "extraordinary rendition" to send
> suspects to other countries where he knows they will be tortured.
> He is not representing me when he uses "signing statements" to
> change laws he doesn't like into laws he does like. He is not
> representing me when he bull-headedly sticks to his Iraq strategy
> when it is clear that he doesn't have popular support for it,
> especially knowing that he got us into this war with bad arguments
> made from bad data that he knew was not true when he used that
> data to manipulate us into backing him in this war.
>
> To remain silent is to betray your fellow citizens in the
> representative democracy that we live in. To "attack our country"
> by stating our opinions and declaring "NO!" when we need to IS
> patriotism.
>
> Paul
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> Reverend Keely,
>
>
>
> For the 409382th time, I already told you, I am autistic, I don't
> have a real sense of embarrassment. Why that doesn't stick in your
> head seems to escape me, other than you listen with emotions and
> feelings rather than intelligent rational thought. Perhaps not
> having rational thought is your disability.
>
>
>
> But, obviously having a sense of embarrassment doesn't keep you
> from saying stupid, cruel, arrogant, ignorant, and I guess
> embarrassing things either does it.
>
>
>
> I don't question Sunil's patriotism, I just question which country
> he places that patriotism in. He attacks our country regularly, he
> never says anything pleasant about it. He defends the Taliban,
> even those that attacked our troops. And now he is blaming our men
> and women in uniform for the failures in Iraqi that have done
> their job to the best of their ability and very heroically too,
> might I add.
>
>
>
> Sunil has taken great steps and carefully worded everything he has
> said to cover the fact that he has a strong disdain for the United
> States, and avoided every opportunity to cast doubt on that by me
> and others.
>
>
>
> He has every right to hate the United States if he wants to. Many
> people do. I just think he should be honest about it when he
> criticizes this country so that we can see it in the proper
> context. Right now, I view Sunil's words as words of a foreigner
> expressing his opinion of the United States. I cannot view him as
> a patriot questioning the policies of his country, until he gives
> me reason or tells me otherwise. He has not done so, and
> purposefully avoids doing so.
>
>
>
> But once again Reverend Keely, I appreciate your moral advise, for
> thou art holier than thee and all others. No doubt, in the end,
> the pitch fork in your arse will be not be as hot or sharp as the
> rest of ours.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Donovan
>
> */keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>/*
> wrote:
>
> At what point, Donovan, might it be said that you've
> embarrassed yourself quite enough? Is there a time that your
> brain and your keyboard will stop their collusion in making
> you appear as you do?
>
> I've met you. You're not that bad in person, and you
> undoubtedly have a lot of good traits. In fact, I found you
> quite pleasant. But for your own sake, as well as for the
> cause of civil discord, would you please reexamine whatever it
> is about email that turns you into such a badgering and
> bellicose pest?
>
> And please remember that I'm not ordained; "Reverend Keely" is
> far more than I'm entitled to.
>
> keely
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:55:03 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of
> Iraq Failures
>
> */Sunil,/*
>
>
>
> */You wrote:/*
>
>
>
> "Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph."
>
>
>
> */Clearly, I am neither. If I was McCarthy you would praising
> me for my destruction of good leaders. If I were Joseph you
> would be at my feet. /*
>
>
>
> /*/Don't blame others for not telling the truth when it cannot
> be uttered from your own lips. /*/
>
>
>
> /*/You have great courtroom tactics, Sunil. But I assure you,
> you have answered the question for those of us that wanted to
> know. /*/
>
>
>
> /*/Best,/*/
>
>
>
> /*/Donovan/*/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> */Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>
> Moscow's McCarthy continues to display his love of freedom
> by imposing
> loyalty tests.
>
> Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph.
>
> Sunil
>
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His
> Generals of Iraq
> >Failures
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Sunil,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > "Bush has said that the military has been sent all the
> troops they
> >requested.
> >Why didn't the generals request more troops from the
> beginning? Why didn't
> >they admit how poorly things were going and put it back
> in the lap of the
> >administration?"
> >
> >
> > First, the Generals did ask for more troops and did give
> honest
> >appraisals of the situation, they just did not publish
> that information for
> >you and the enemy to see in the Washington Post and New
> York Times.
> >
> > Second, there were no more troops to be had.
> >
> > Third, more troops wouldn't solve the problem, it would
> just make the
> >problem larger. The problem was the political objective,
> not military
> >incompetence. They have guns not magic wands. This was
> Bush's blunder, not
> >the officers, soldiers, or generals over there.
> >
> > Fourth, it is UNACCEPTABLE for an officer to be going to
> the AP and
> >personally attack his commanding officers. There are
> proper ways of going
> >about filing a complaint about a misbehaving or
> incompetent commanding
> >officer. What this guy did was wrong and dangerous.
> >
> > Finally, we are still waiting for you to say, "I love my
> country, the
> >United States of America."
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> >Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> > Donovan,
> >
> >On the one hand I don't disagree that the administration
> 'screwed this war
> >up;' having said that, I think wars like this are always
> going to end in
> >failure. But since the war began, up until he announced
> the 'surge,' Bush
> >has said that the military has been sent all the troops
> they requested.
> >Why didn't the generals request more troops from the
> beginning? Why didn't
> >they admit how poorly things were going and put it back
> in the lap of the
> >administration?
> >
> >It seems to me that generals saw the treatment Gen.
> Shinseki received after
> >saying that four to five hundred thousand troops would be
> needed for the
> >war, and they didn't want the same treatment for
> themselves. That's their
> >fault, isn't it?
> >
> >Sunil
> >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
> > >To: Tom Hansen , thansen at moscow.com
> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>,
> > >vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His
> Generals of Iraq
> > >Failures
> > >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Complaining is one thing. But going to the media and to
> undermine the
> > >command structure of the military during an actual
> military action is not
> >a
> > >right.
> > >
> > > And I don't believe him anyway. I think it is the
> administration's fault
> > >for screwing this war up, not the generals.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > >Donovan
> > >
> >
> >
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