[Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Sun Apr 29 06:06:41 PDT 2007
Mr. Rumelhart -
As I have stated before, Sunil has NEVER degraded this country of ours (and
his). In fact, if you were to search Sunil's postings, you would find
several instances about his fond memories of undergraduate days in
California, along with some personal (and extremely favorable) reflections
of his concerning Idaho.
That said. I seriously don't see any reason for Sunil to respond to the
ignorant whims of a Vision 2020 subscriber simply to satisfy that
subscriber's anxiety.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"I think if you are going to attack someone in public, you need to at least
be willing to meet with them in public in a debate or discussion format,
otherwise you will rightfully earn the term of a yellow-belly."
- Donovan Arnold (October 4, 2006)
_____
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:00 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
I would be quite surprised to learn that Sunil doesn't love our country.
However, I don't know him so how am I to refute that? Sunil is more than
capable of defending himself if he chooses to. I am impressed by him, based
upon everything I've read here.
At the end, it boiled down to Donovan wishing that Sunil came out and said
more positive things about our country. That was a compromise that seemed
to me to be "fair enough". I'm not defending anything else that was said in
the exchange.
Why should I bother being conciliatory or irenic if I don't recognize honest
attempts to reach middle ground?
Paul
P.S. I thought you had made a typo with "irenic" and meant "ironic". I was
trying to figure that one out until I looked it up and found it was a word
and that it meant "operating toward peace, moderation, or conciliation".
I've never come across that word before.
keely emerinemix wrote:
Here's the thing, Paul. I do know the guy, and you're not likely to meet
too many people with more integrity than Sunil.
I've admired your conciliatory and irenic tone in the past, but there's
nothing "fair enough" about anything Donovan has said in this or any other
exchange. I'm not qualified to judge what he does deserve, but one thing
Donovan doesn't deserve is the benefit of the doubt, and I would suggest
that Sunil has more than proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is a
fine and decent man who loves his country.
keely
_____
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:15:30 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
Fair enough.
I'd think that the fact that he is doing what he can to change what he
doesn't like is evidence enough that he appreciates this country. But I
don't know the guy, so I have no way of knowing if that's true or not.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote:
Paul,
I agree with most of what you said. But I believe there is a difference
between a citizen genuinely making a constructive criticism and someone just
out to point out flaws in our government and divide people.
I don't disagree with Sunil's arguments against Bush and our country, I just
disagree with his motives and dangerous solutions to problems.
A guy that does nothing but attack the character of our country, its
uniformed members, and never praising it, ever, raises concerns for me.
I'm saying, it sure would be nice if Sunil could say something nice about
the country instead of bashing it and supporting its enemy's agenda 100% of
the time.
Best,
Donovan
Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com> <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
An attempt to put this in perspective.
The United States of America differs from some other countries in that it is
a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Our
President, along with all other elected officials, is an ordinary citizen
who is supposedly carrying a burden in a self-less act of devotion to the
rest of us. He is not royal, he is not a deity, and he is not of an
official upper class. He works for us. He does not have the license to
tell us what is "patriotic" and what is not. What he says about it is not
Royal Decree, religious dogma, nor law. It is the opinion of a fellow
citizen that coincidentally happens to bring him more personal power if you
agree with him.
Thus, it makes sense to keep an eye on him and to make sure that he is doing
what *we* want him to do, not what *he* wants to do. If he is doing
something that goes against what the people voted him in to do, then they
are obligated to do something about it. To do otherwise would be to turn
your back on the idea of a representational government. One way of "doing
something" about it is to make your concerns known publicly. Sunil, and
others like him, should be commended for not allowing our representative to
work against our wishes.
Our President is not representing me when he decides that we can be allowed
to use torture in our daily conduct as a nation, merely because he can argue
some loopholes in the Geneva conventions. Thus, I make this known. He is
not representing me when he decides that he can spy on our private
communications without legal warrants, especially when he arrogantly ignores
the process already in place that is not onerous to get those warrants.
Thus, I make this known as well. He is not representing me when he orders
secret camps in other countries to be built to take our prisoners to when he
wants them tortured without benefit of public scrutiny, nor when he uses
"extraordinary rendition" to send suspects to other countries where he knows
they will be tortured. He is not representing me when he uses "signing
statements" to change laws he doesn't like into laws he does like. He is
not representing me when he bull-headedly sticks to his Iraq strategy when
it is clear that he doesn't have popular support for it, especially knowing
that he got us into this war with bad arguments made from bad data that he
knew was not true when he used that data to manipulate us into backing him
in this war.
To remain silent is to betray your fellow citizens in the representative
democracy that we live in. To "attack our country" by stating our opinions
and declaring "NO!" when we need to IS patriotism.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote:
Reverend Keely,
For the 409382th time, I already told you, I am autistic, I don't have a
real sense of embarrassment. Why that doesn't stick in your head seems to
escape me, other than you listen with emotions and feelings rather than
intelligent rational thought. Perhaps not having rational thought is your
disability.
But, obviously having a sense of embarrassment doesn't keep you from saying
stupid, cruel, arrogant, ignorant, and I guess embarrassing things either
does it.
I don't question Sunil's patriotism, I just question which country he places
that patriotism in. He attacks our country regularly, he never says anything
pleasant about it. He defends the Taliban, even those that attacked our
troops. And now he is blaming our men and women in uniform for the failures
in Iraqi that have done their job to the best of their ability and very
heroically too, might I add.
Sunil has taken great steps and carefully worded everything he has said to
cover the fact that he has a strong disdain for the United States, and
avoided every opportunity to cast doubt on that by me and others.
He has every right to hate the United States if he wants to. Many people do.
I just think he should be honest about it when he criticizes this country so
that we can see it in the proper context. Right now, I view Sunil's words as
words of a foreigner expressing his opinion of the United States. I cannot
view him as a patriot questioning the policies of his country, until he
gives me reason or tells me otherwise. He has not done so, and purposefully
avoids doing so.
But once again Reverend Keely, I appreciate your moral advise, for thou art
holier than thee and all others. No doubt, in the end, the pitch fork in
your arse will be not be as hot or sharp as the rest of ours.
Best,
Donovan
keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com> <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
At what point, Donovan, might it be said that you've embarrassed yourself
quite enough? Is there a time that your brain and your keyboard will stop
their collusion in making you appear as you do?
I've met you. You're not that bad in person, and you undoubtedly have a lot
of good traits. In fact, I found you quite pleasant. But for your own
sake, as well as for the cause of civil discord, would you please reexamine
whatever it is about email that turns you into such a badgering and
bellicose pest?
And please remember that I'm not ordained; "Reverend Keely" is far more than
I'm entitled to.
keely
_____
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:55:03 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
Sunil,
You wrote:
"Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph."
Clearly, I am neither. If I was McCarthy you would praising me for my
destruction of good leaders. If I were Joseph you would be at my feet.
Don't blame others for not telling the truth when it cannot be uttered from
your own lips.
You have great courtroom tactics, Sunil. But I assure you, you have answered
the question for those of us that wanted to know.
Best,
Donovan
Sunil Ramalingam <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
Moscow's McCarthy continues to display his love of freedom by imposing
loyalty tests.
Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph.
Sunil
>From: Donovan Arnold
>To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
>Failures
>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunil,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Bush has said that the military has been sent all the troops they
>requested.
>Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why didn't
>they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap of the
>administration?"
>
>
> First, the Generals did ask for more troops and did give honest
>appraisals of the situation, they just did not publish that information for
>you and the enemy to see in the Washington Post and New York Times.
>
> Second, there were no more troops to be had.
>
> Third, more troops wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make the
>problem larger. The problem was the political objective, not military
>incompetence. They have guns not magic wands. This was Bush's blunder, not
>the officers, soldiers, or generals over there.
>
> Fourth, it is UNACCEPTABLE for an officer to be going to the AP and
>personally attack his commanding officers. There are proper ways of going
>about filing a complaint about a misbehaving or incompetent commanding
>officer. What this guy did was wrong and dangerous.
>
> Finally, we are still waiting for you to say, "I love my country, the
>United States of America."
>
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
>Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> Donovan,
>
>On the one hand I don't disagree that the administration 'screwed this war
>up;' having said that, I think wars like this are always going to end in
>failure. But since the war began, up until he announced the 'surge,' Bush
>has said that the military has been sent all the troops they requested.
>Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why didn't
>they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap of the
>administration?
>
>It seems to me that generals saw the treatment Gen. Shinseki received after
>saying that four to five hundred thousand troops would be needed for the
>war, and they didn't want the same treatment for themselves. That's their
>fault, isn't it?
>
>Sunil
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Tom Hansen , thansen at moscow.com,
> >vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
> >Failures
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Complaining is one thing. But going to the media and to undermine the
> >command structure of the military during an actual military action is not
>a
> >right.
> >
> > And I don't believe him anyway. I think it is the administration's fault
> >for screwing this war up, not the generals.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >Donovan
> >
>
>
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