[Vision2020] Who Dat?

Wed Apr 25 07:25:22 PDT 2007

Saundra,

The message from Juanita Flores previously posted has relevance and references for this issue also.

W.

___________________________________

----- Original Message ----- 
From: News of Christ Cult 
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Fantasy vs, Reality Second Installment

Fantasy: 

SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS
Douglas J. Wilson

Here are some excerpts from the booklet:

  * "To say the least, it is strange that the thing the Bible condemns (slave-trading) brings very little opprobrium upon the North, yet that which the Bible allows (slave-ownership) has brought down all manner of condemnation upon the South." (page 22)

  * "As we have already mentioned, the 'peculiar institution' of slavery was not perfect or sinless, but the reality was a far cry from the horrific descriptions given to us in modern histories." (page 22)

  * "Slavery as it existed in the South was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its dominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence." (page 24)

  * "There has never been a multi-racial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world." (page 24)

  * "Slave life was to them a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care." (page 25)

  * "But many Southern blacks supported the South because of long established bonds of affection and trust that had been forged over generations with their white masters and friends." (page 27)

  * "Nearly every slave in the South enjoyed a higher standard of living than the poor whites of the South -- and had a much easier existence." (page 30)

Reality:

Bullwhip Days: The Slaves Remember: An Oral History 
Creator:  James Mellon
Publisher:  Grove Press 

Synopsis:  In an unflinching oral history, former slaves eloquently describe their experiences in captivity and portray the harsh conditions they faced in everyday life as slaves.

URL

Customer Reviews:  

 The Bad, The Sad, And The Extremely Ugly   June 12, 2006
 1 out of 1 found this review helpful

This is the real deal. Ex-slaves telling their own experiences; a few not-so-bad, many extremely heartbreaking. This is one of the best insights into what slavery was really like during the 19th Century. This is the story, in there own words, of how a people were totally dehumanized during America's most shameful period. A country claiming "liberty and justice for all" while denying that freedom to millions of fellow human beings. And many still ask the question, "why do African-Americans still lag behind in so many areas, while other ethnic groups had to struggle as immigrants also?" This book is a reminder that blacks were forcibly brought here, and denied-for-years even the simplest education. Maybe the reading of this book, will help some realize the continual uphill struggle, blacks have tried to achieve in a few short decades since the Civil Rights Movement. Trying to makeup for Centuries of bondage, and inequality. Just as we can never forget the evils of the Holocaust, so it should be equaly true with the era of slavery.

 The Slaves Own Words   January 31, 2006
  1 out of 1 found this review helpful

I have used this book as part of my Black history classes for 5 years now. It would be impossible to make up the stories that actually happened to a people held against their will and it is riveting to read about the memories and nightmares. This book gives a name to slaves, personalizes it and makes the suffering immortal. These recollections, though they belonged to individuals, makes the suffering universal. The experience of one is the experience of all. But yet, these people on occasion find some humor in various memories and you can share there collective joy over 150 years later. I highly recommend this book to anyone, not just students and historians.

 "The Real Deal"    October 19, 2005
 1 out of 1 found this review helpful

I first read this book back in 1991. Even today, I will occasionally reread it. It is very informative and very much real. I can truly say that I love this book and this is a must have. You will truly enjoy it. My people have come a long way.

 Powerful & Moving   February 7, 2005 
 1 out of 1 found this review helpful

Wow...That's all I can say. This is a wonderful book and a must read for everyone. I read this as part of a book club discussion for Black History Month. What a way to open my eyes to a part of American history. Very moving.

 Telling it like it was    December 26, 2002
 3 out of 3 found this review helpful

Forget Tara, forget Falconhurst... this was the real deal. Based on the results of a U.S. Government project in the 1930's to capture the memories of living former slaves on tape, this awesome book is the history of slavery in the United States by those most qualified to tell it -- the blacks who actually lived it. And by telling their stories, we live through it with them; we feel what it must have been like to have your family members sold away from you, to be forced into cohabitation with a fellow slave you despised for the sole purpose of breeding new slaves, to be treated like a beast of burden, and the crushing indignity of being a piece of property to be treated however your master's whim takes him. The former slaves remembered it all, and their reminiscences aren't pretty: "For miles around you could hear those dreadful whuppins. They were a turrible part of livin'." We hear their voices through the dark years of Reconstruction, which for many former slaves was escaping out of one hell and landing into the next, and we hear the stark statement of one old man who sums up the results of all his labor, paid and unpaid, over the decades: "Ain't got nothin, ain't got nothin, ain't got nothin." And finally, we can only wonder at the strength and resilience of so many who claimed their humanity after so many years of being treated as something less than human, and who managed to not only survive, but to keep on keepin' on.

 WHAT A BOOK    April 26, 2002
 5 out of 6 found this review helpful

FOR SO LONG, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT SLAVERY WAS LIKE. I'VE READ ABOUT IT IN BOOKS BUT THERE REALLY WAS NO DETAILED INFORMATION ON THE ACTUAL SLAVES. THIS BOOK REALLY HELPED ME TO FEEL THE DEVASTATION AND HUMILIATION OF THE AFRICAN SLAVE. IT HAS ALSO GIVEN ME A DIFFERENT OUTLOOK ON WHO I AM AND WHERE MY PEOPLE HAVE COME FROM. LONG BEFORE THIS BOOK I HAD DOUBTS ABOUT BEING AFRICAN. I DON'T MEAN AFRICAN AMERICAN. AFRICAN! FROM THE TRAUMATIC STRUGGLE MY PEOPLE HAVE ENDURED HAS MADE ME REALIZE THAT I WOULD BE SO IGNORANT TO CHANGE WHAT THEY HAVE GIVEN ME. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK FOR NOT CHANGING EVEN THE DIALECT OF THE EX-SLAVES. IT REMINDS ME HOW FAR WE HAVE COME AND HOW FAR WE HAVEN'T. THERE IS SO MUCH HEALING THAT HAS TO COME TO THE SO CALLED AFRICAN AMERICANS. READING THIS BOOK, I REALIZE THAT I HAVE FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE STILL IN THE SAME STATE OF MIND. -MENTALLY ENSLAVED-

 A MUST READ for EVERYBODY!!!   February 27, 2002 
 2 out of 2 found this review helpful

This is a fat book which you don't have to read cover to cover. You can skip around and read what real slaves said about raising children, their white masters, their work, what they ate, how they celebrated, how they worshiped, etc. This really tells what life was really like on plantations. If you like this book I recommend I WAS BORN A SLAVE which is similar. Two novels I recommend are THE DIARY OF A SLAVE GIRL, RUBY JO which tells about pirates and how runaways sometimes joined pirate ships where they were treated equally. Also, THE JOURNAL OF LEROY JONES, A FUGITIVE SLAVE.

 As a teaching aid   May 10, 2000
  4 out of 4 found this review helpful

This book would make a wonderful teaching aid. Its first hand accounts and lessons in perspective will draw in the reader while reminding them that these are memories that should not soon be forgotten. I have returned to this book several times and have recommended it ( with limited sucess ) to educators around the south and midwest. This book should be in every high school library.

 From a White Woman's Perspective    April 8, 2000
 4 out of 6 found this review helpful

As a wife of a black man (married 14 years), I am constantly learning of the plight of african-americans and their culture in order to better understand and share it with our four children. This book has taught me more and moved me more than ANY OTHER book I have ever read on the subject. The accounts are moving, the pictures are unforgettable, and the book flows easily from one interview to the next. Every household in America with an interest in the "slave days" of the U.S. should read this book and keep it to pass on to their children.

 Wonderful book    October 1, 1999
Great book with a couple of really interesting pictures that make you do a lot of thinking about that time in our nation's history.

 I agree with the reviews below    September 17, 1999
 6 out of 7 found this review helpful

I was astounded by this book. The interviews draw a clear, persuasive picture that no dry history book ever could, no matter how learned the author. I now feel as though I have an accurate view of what the lives of slaves were like. 
I am pleased to see that not every slave owner was a monster and that not every slave lived a life of continuous misery. The institution was terrible, of course, and its continued existence so late in this country was a disgrace. Many slave owners were brutes. However, this book illustrates the terrific capacity of human beings to rise above their circumstances, especially of the oppressed, but also of the oppressors.

I agree with every statement in all of the previous reviews, and I recommend the book wholeheartedly.

 Excellent, People come alive again through their experiences   August 12, 1999
 1 out of 1 found this review helpful

This book is really superb. It puts a human face with each story on an ugly period of American history. The good and the bad, the funny and the quirky experiences are explained sincerely and realistically. The best way to learn about history is through the voices of those who lived through it so I consider this book a valuable document and a tribute to the human spirit

 The Most Neglected Period in U.S. History Comes Alive    September 21, 1998
 4 out of 5 found this review helpful

You wouldn't believe my excitement upon discovering this book at the local library. These are the voices of real slaves, their histories recorded in the 1930's through a government project to collect this data. What a true American gem. All the voices are transcribed in the "native" language - Black English as spoken by ex-slaves, many of them at the time of their stories being recorded nearly a hundred years old. The accounts are fascinating, and non-biased. Some slaves speak frankly of wishing once again for slavery, and they recount the generosity and attention of the "Old Marse". Others tell horrific and moving stories of truly brutal and savage masters and wouldn't want to return to "slave times" under any circumstance. Most of the stories include first-hand accounts of their experiences through the Civil War and Reconstruction, although the primary goal was to record their experiences while slaves. Reconstruction of this country had enormous impact, and what the slaves did to build the nation during it's early years has been such a neglected historical topic. This is by far one of the most important books in my collection. As a white 31-year old middle-class woman, this is a must-read for anyone who might call themselves an American, regardless of race.

 Experiences described here will stay with you a long time.    September 14, 1998
 3 out of 3 found this review helpful

This book will expand your mind by exposing you to a set of emotions that are (presumably) no longer experienced: how it feels to be owned. Your own emotions will run the gamut from anger to sadness and back again, but it is worth it to hear about slavery from people who experienced it. You will never again think about it in abstract terms .

****************************************************************
http://www.amazon.com/Unchained-Memories-Readings-Slave-Narratives/dp/0821228420

Unchained Memories: Readings from the Slave Narratives (Hardcover) 
by Spencer Crew (Author), Cynthia Goodman (Author), Henry Louis Gates (Author) "Nothing symbolizes the fragility and inequities of slave life better than the slave auction..."

Customer Reviews Average Customer Review: 

     Search Customer Reviews ( What's this?)  

         Slavery As Experienced By Slaves, January 9, 2007
            Reviewer: N. J. Weaver "lnw567" (Wichita, Kansas United States) - See all my reviews

      Amazing book. I've never read one like it. Quite interesting. Honest experiences. An eye-opener. Anyone interested in history will enjoy this. I am.

        ( Report this) 

      A wonderful historical collection, July 1, 2003
            Reviewer: The RAWSISTAZ Reviewers (RAWSISTAZ.com ) - See all my reviews  
      In this beautiful, historical collection of slave narratives and photographs, we are given a look inside the lives of actual slaves being interviewed as part of a project conducted by the Works Progress Administration. With more than forty interviews, UNCHAINED MEMORIES is a work of art that provides a well-rounded look at the lives of slaves. It includes insight into their living conditions, thoughts about slavery, their families and even the details of actual slave auctions. It is a sometimes sad collection, but much needed to help us understand the progress our ancestors have made in the world. 
      Through their accounts, we are able to see the pain and suffering as well as the spirit and pride of those born into slavery, learn from it, and pass it along to our children. This is a wonderful resource for not only African American families, but for anyone interested in history and the period of slavery and its impact upon the African American race. It is compiled with the grace and dignity deserving of a people who have been through so much!

      Reviewed by Tee C. Royal
      of The RAWSISTAZ Reviewers

      a href=" http://www.amazon.com/gp/vote/ref=cm_r8n_inapp_confirm/102-9379998-3930564?ie=UTF8&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.1.id=A2VKWLCNZF4ZVB&type=pipeline&uri=%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F0821228420&template=inappropriate&response=report&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.1.type=AmazonCustomer&qv=1&voteValue=1&contentId=2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95&label=Inappropriate&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.1=1&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.2=1&qk=%2AVersion%2A&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.2.id=1977787&2115%7CR26QM4VPVWPR95.contentAssoc.2.type=ProductSet&context=Reviews ">Report this)

      Sickening true stories of depravity, June 29, 2003
            Reviewer: LF "Keep your feedback to yourself, these are my opinions, not yours" (USA) - See all my reviews 
      This book is hard to read. It is hard to wade through the cruelty. 
      There are stories here of families being split apart by an uncaring master class. Children were callously sold and permanently separated from their parents. Husbands and wives were similarly split up.

      Frankly, it makes you sick.

      Then there are the stories of brutality. Again it makes you sick. How could the slave owners have sunk so low?

      If you are looking for well written stories that bring the institution of slavery to life for you, this is not the book. What you get here are very short and very simple reports by individuals. There's nothing here that you didn't know already. This is not a great work of literature.

      This is just a punch right in the nose to make you wonder how slave owners could have been so cruel.
      ( Report this) 

      A Beautiful Book, February 26, 2003
            Reviewer: S. Hudson "Avid Reader" (Tucker, GA USA) - See all my reviews

      "...Oh freedom, Oh freedom, Oh freedom over me. And before I'll be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave and go home to my Lord and be free"
      __Old Negro Spiritual 
      The words of the spiritual above must not have been uttered to these beautiful human beings who have graciously allowed interviewers from the 1930's Governments Works Progress Administration to chronicle their life stories. For if the words above had been uttered, the slave experience, from an intimate and painful point of view, would never have received the credence they due. Tales of slavery are still passed down from generation to generation, and traditions still are followed but to see a book like Unchained Memories is special. Quite simply, this is a beautiful book. I'm so thrilled to have been given the opportunity to read it and experience it and learn from it. I can treat the book as a textbook, a factual accounting of the lives of former slaves who have wonderful stories that they don't mind sharing with the world. For that reason alone, this book has earned a permanent place on my coffee table, for all who enter into my house to experience. Something about the actual words of former slaves bound in book form validates an agonizing time in American History.

      Unchained Memories is well researched and magnificently laid out. At the beginning of every chapter is an introductory text that accounts for the tenure of the time, followed by a poignant quote and then brief narratives begin. My one regret is that the narratives are so short, when biographers obviously spent a great deal of time with these people. I am grateful that there is an extensive bibliography at the back so that I can, at some point, go and read the entire account by the former slave. Oh where will I find the time? If you read this book, I would highly suggest that you get a copy of the HBO documentary of the same name and watch it as well. There is nothing like "hearing" the words spoken by African American actors of today in the vernacular of the time.

      I'm glad that Unchained Memories was published, and quite fittingly made its debut during Black History Month. These former slaves are the reason why Black History Month is perpetuated now and a fitting tribute for remembering from whence we as a nation have come.

      ( Report this) 

       Exceptional bridging of history and experience, February 16, 2003
            Reviewer: Ann (Dix Hills, New York USA) - See all my reviews  
      An exquisite pictorial and narrative exploration of the institution of American slavery, this book provides readers with the opportunity to experience from personal recollections what it was like to live under conditions of slavery. The text format, an artistic balance of photographs and primary sources, is composed of interviews with former slaves conducted in the 1930s by the Federal Writers' Project. Each chapter focuses on a particular aspect of slave life - auctions, work, family, special occasions, providing a deeply etched portrait of hardships and abuses as well as examples of strength of character and quiet dignity. A worthy addition to one's library!

by Spencer Crew (Author), Cynthia Goodman (Author), Henry Louis Gates (Author) "Nothing symbolizes the fragility and inequities of slave life better than the slave auction..."
-- 

Juanita Flores
Advocate for the Truth from Jesus 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
To: "'Sue Hovey'" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?

> Hi Sue,
> 
> The man interviewed in the radio clip was, I think, Steve Wilkins, Doug
> Wilson's sidekick & good buddy.  As such, we know enough to know that they
> are fans of revisionist history, even when it means plagarising it.
> 
> That said, I believe the narrative collection he was referring to was
> published as _The American Slave: A Composite Autobiography_.  For more
> information on this project, as well as a sampling of the narratives, see:
> http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/wpa/wpahome.html
> 
> Mr. Fort's comments are insightful:
> "It is worthwhile to read the narratives closely, watching and listening for
> unexpected details, unspoken feelings, and hidden meanings. Often the full
> meanings of the narratives will remain unclear, but the ambiguities
> themselves bear careful consideration. When Emma Crockett spoke about
> whippings, she said that "All I knowed, 'twas bad times and folks got
> whupped, but I kain't say who was to blame; some was good and some was bad."
> We might discern a number of reasons for her inability or unwillingness to
> name names, to be more specific about brutalities suffered under slavery.
> She admitted that her memory was failing her, not unreasonable for an
> eighty-year-old. She also told her interviewer that under slavery she lived
> on the "plantation right over yander,"and it is likely that the children or
> grandchildren of her former masters, or her former overseers, still lived
> nearby; the threat of retribution could have made her hold her tongue. Or,
> perhaps in her old age she had come to view her life as a slave with
> equanimity and forgiveness. It is impossible to know why she reserved
> judgment, but it is worth considering the possibilities."
> http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/wpa/reading.html
> 
> Clearly, critical thinking skills aren't one of Wilkins' fortes, and we
> shouldn't blame him for his shortcomings were it not for the fact that he
> doesn't have the sense the good Lord gave him to keep his trap shut.  Having
> spend more than a few hours reading actual narratives, I can only assume
> that Wilkins did what he's so good at:  picking & choosing *only* the
> information that suits his purpose and discarding all the rest.  Quite
> frankly, the man wouldn't know objectivity if it reared up and bit him on
> his ample behind.
> 
> If you're interested in reading more, you might also want to check out:
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/wpaintro/wpahome.html
> http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html
> 
> Another resource is:
> http://medicolegal.tripod.com/weldslaveryasis.htm
> I found this resource courtesy of Tom's Not on the Palouse Web site:
> http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/
> 
> 
> 
> HTH,
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
> 
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> - Edmund Burke
> 
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life plus
> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> author.*****
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Sue Hovey
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:09 PM
> To: Tom Hansen; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
> 
> I listened and reflected on what was said, and as a preamble to my remarks, 
> count me as one who thinks any connection between his reality and mine is 
> purely coincidental.
> 
> "Two different races dwelt together in harmony and true affection."  For 
> god's sake that wasn't even happening in the 20s and 30s, (when the 
> interviews were said to have been done), then by what stretch of the 
> imagination would one infer it happened in the early and middle 1800s.  He 
> says those interviews were done in the late 20s and early 30s.  That would 
> mean the youngest interviewees had to have been born say 1860 and even they 
> would have been 70 by 1930.  And that would be the youngest group who lived 
> as slaves.  I doubt very many could have been slaves as adults. They would 
> have had to been born in 1840 or so and that would make them 90 at the time 
> of the interviews, and he says there were thousands of interviews.   In the 
> 1930s the average lifespan in the U.S. was about 55.  This stuff doesn't 
> even fit into a legitimate timeline.
> 
> We have 3 choices,  I think:   We can believe those interviews represent the
> 
> truth, we can believe the former slaves didn't remember their early lives, 
> or we can believe these testimonies, if they even exist, are pure fiction.. 
> The first option has little historical validity, the second is an insult to 
> African American intelligence, so I'll go with number three.
> 
> Tom, is that stuff  the pap you are going to be spoon feeding us over the 
> next few days?  I want a refund.
> 
> Sue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:05 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
> 
> 
>> Greetings Visionaires -
>>
>> Just to add a little bit of adventure to Vision 2020's bandwidth, I have a
>> rather extensive library of fairly recent recordings.  I will spoon-feed 
>> you
>> short sound-bites (accompanied with brief descriptions of their context).
>>
>> Your objective is simply to answer the question . . .
>>
>> Who Dat?
>>
>> First up:  This interview took place April 19, 2007 (That's right - last
>> Thursday) on radio station KBJS 90.3 FM out of Jacksonville, Texas.
>> Disregard the on-air personality.  But, how about the person being
>> interviewed . . .
>>
>> "Who Dat?"
>> http://www.tomandrodna.com/Stuff/KBJS_Interview_041907_06.mp3
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "I'll just speak for our church, in Christ Church.  If I found out that a
>> member of our church or a church officer was lying to non-believers in the
>> community, as a way to get by or protect themself or protect his 
>> reputation,
>> yes, he'd be disciplined."
>>
>> - Doug Wilson (January 31, 2007)
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.0/775 - Release Date: 4/24/2007 
>> 5:43 PM
>>
>> 
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>               http://www.fsr.net                       
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> 
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>               http://www.fsr.net                       
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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