[Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
Bruce and Jean Livingston
jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
Thu Oct 19 17:31:28 PDT 2006
I believe that there is an abundance of literature validating the argument that the costs of life without parole are substantially cheaper than executing someone. See page 4 of the attached link. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf
The only way to make it cheaper to execute people is to diminish the procedural protections that are currently in place and try to speed up the process. Given the numbers of innocent people that are getting convicted and placed on death row with the current procedural protections in place, further eroding the procedural protections of appeal and habeas corpus will ensure that the numbers of innocent, wrongly convicted will increase. (note the discussions on this list about the erosion of habeas corpus protections recently, but understand that radical changes in the availability and scope of habeas corpus was dramatically limited by the passage of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996).
For those who believe that deterrence based on the death penalty is a valid, real notion, look at page 3 of the attached link. I have not commented on the validity of studies advanced by Dudley Sharp and his victim's rights organization "Justice For All," but I believe that his and the organization's statistics are more biased and misleading than those on the admittedly anti-death penalty cite that I am quoting herein. I don't have my fingers on the rebuttal of many of Mr. Sharp's statements, but he is known as a "loose cannon" who is a "good quote" when news media are looking for something from his side of the spectrum. My sense is that he has been caught lying, or blatantly misleading in his assertions with a disturbing degree of frequency. The bulk of the research on the deterrent effect weighs against a significant deterrent effect. This comports with intuition. The marginal effect of having a death penalty to pile onto the life without parole penalty that is in place in virtually all states cannot lead to much deterrent effect. There are very few people who think, "hmmm, I can kill this person and only get life without parole, so that's worth the risk, but if I were in a death penalty state and had that added risk, I wouldn't consider murdering this person." The fact is most murders are committed by people who don't think in terms of consequences or getting caught.
Bruce Livingston
----- Original Message -----
From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
To: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>; "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>I heard on the news this morning that Shasta Goene may still have to testify. So much for helping her with the plea deal. Some have claimed that it costs more to execute a person that to have them incarcerated for life. Duncan could live an other 50 years. I find it hard to believe that the cost of keeping him locked up is less tha an execution. I am not into vengeance, but I do care about the cost to the taxpayer and public safety. Execute him.
>
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Joe Campbell joekc at adelphia.net
> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:12:30 -0700
> To: "g. crabtree" jampot at adelphia.net
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>> Sorry for not responding to your wonderful example of an appeal to authority earlier, Gary, but I've been busy with my day job.
>>
>> Here is my response: Your comments below commit the fallacy of appeal to authority. Do you really think that I can't find some neat quotes on the web in favor of my position?
>>
>> --
>> Joe Campbell
>>
>> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>> =============
>> Actually Joe, if by empirical you meant "derived from or guided by experience or observation" I would have no choice but to disagree. I would think that just about everyone who has given even the most fleeting attention to the news for the last few years could cite five or more instances of murderers fighting to avoid the death penalty for every one that embraces that option. According to the folks at DPINFO.COM (death penalty information) what appears to be an unbiased clearinghouse for this type of information.
>>
>> "At every level of the criminal justice process, virtually all criminals do everything they can to lessen possible punishments. I estimate that less than 1% of all convicted capital murderers request a death sentence in the punishment phase of their trial. The apprehended criminals' desire for lesser punishments is overwhelming and unchallenged.
>>
>> Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since 1973, 85, or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have not waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming that murderers would rather live on death row than die. Why? The survival effect -- life is preferred over death and death is feared more than life. Even on death row, that is the rule." Dudley Sharp, Resource Director, Justice For All
>>
>> With this in mind, I would contend that your assertion that "It is not as if your view has any more empirical support than mine!" is, once again, wrong.
>>
>> gc
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>>
>>
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > It is not as if your view has any more empirical support than mine!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Joe Campbell
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =============
>> > Reason #3: A long life in prison is far worse than a short death.
>> >
>> > If this is truly the case, why do you suppose so many vermin such as Duncan
>> > prefer/fight for the life sentence? For the most part this, is true of all
>> > convicted killers. What do you base your contention on? I can't imagine that
>> > it's even how you, personally, would feel should you ever be in a similar
>> > circumstance. (not that you would, of course) This "long life in prison is
>> > worse than death." mantra seems to be bandied about as a truism with
>> > precious little supporting evidence. In fact, most evidence points the other
>> > way.
>> >
>> > gc
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>> > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:33 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>> >
>> >
>> >> Pat,
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the fact is that you and I will pay more if he is
>> >> (eventually) put to death. Yet another reason not to have the death
>> >> penalty.
>> >>
>> >> Reason #3: A long life in prison is far worse than a short death.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Joe Campbell
>> >>
>> >> ---- Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> =============
>> >> But why do I have to pay for him to continue to have life in any form?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall all,
>> >> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people,
>> >> be able to take part in the discussion of why it is that we and the
>> >> universe
>> >> exist if we find the answer to that,
>> >> it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason...for then we would know
>> >> the mind of God.
>> >> Stephen Hawking
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: <whayman at adelphia.net>
>> >> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:09 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hello all,
>> >>
>> >> I would agree with anyone that Duncan tests the limits much more than even
>> >> more than Malvo in the DC area. What Duncan apparently did lies outside
>> >> the
>> >> human scope of sympathy. But even within this absolutely and disgustingly
>> >> twisted psychopathic scenario, I still cannot advocate a penalty of death
>> >> for anyone. Duncan included.
>> >>
>> >> Killing, as we all know, brings back no one. The argument of the death
>> >> penalty as resolution and closure I find closer to vengeance than justice.
>> >>
>> >> Please don't take me wrong; I don't think rehab etc. is the issue in this
>> >> case. I do hope that the rest of his life is spent anonymously and ignobly
>> >> incarcerated.
>> >>
>> >> Warren Hayman
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
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