[Vision2020] crossing the line

Wed May 17 15:35:34 PDT 2006

Keely,

 Once again, you prove you are unable to follow an  argument. My father was in the military, so was my brother, as well as  both grandfathers, and other relatives that even died for this country.

  I love the soldiers that fought admirably for this country.

  That was not my argument and you know it. 

  Trying to twist around my comments in a OVERLY dramatic over  reactionary piece of bullshit meant to file my statement as an attack  on the majority of people that served our country honorably, is either,  malicious or incompetence in understanding an argument. It is hard to  tell which one was intended by you because you illustrate so much of  both in all your work. To bad you have to resort to that level of  rhetoric, again even in response to defending my own blood. But I am  not surprised. 

  I will make it clear, even to you, my statement so even you can understand it, if that is possible:

  Tom Hansen is not a hero. My father is. For him to slander for my  father's service in the military, is wrong. And you can sit on and spin  that all you want.

  Regards,

  _DJA

  PS, You can kiss civility out the window when you attack my family. I don't attack your family, don't attack mine. 

keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:  The producer of the vitriol and vomit below deserves nothing but 
condemnation for his latest screed against Tom.  I don't intend to get into 
it with the author, but I would like to make a plea for some semblance of 
civility again on Vision 2020.

Civility doesn't have to be that idiotic nonsense that begins everything 
with "Thanks for sharing.  It sounds like you have a problem with what I 
said about . . . "  It doesn't have to be fawning, shallow, bland and simple 
enough to not cause offense.  Quite the contrary.  Who would read that?  If 
you want shallow, bland and simple, go peruse the fiction section of a 
"Christian" bookstore.  Vision 2020 exists to further discussion.  I 
appreciate sharp, pointed, even angry rebuttals of bad arguments; I don't 
flinch at tough words and witty rejoinders, even -- especially -- when 
directed at me.  I know what to ignore, and I know what to respond to.  I'm 
no tougher than anyone else on the list, but that's my point:  We're all 
adults and should be able to handle a few, or many, strongly written parries 
and thrusts.  Even warnings about groin kicks and soprano singing, which 
most adults would take as the hyperbolic expression of protectiveness and 
warning intended.

But the garbage below goes too far.

My pity for the writer is surpassed only by my disgust at his 
characterization of soldiers dead and alive.  I grew up in a family that 
protested the war at every possible turn; I was carrying picket signs and 
singing in candlelight vigils at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base starting when 
I was 7 or so.  I hate war and I am unalterably opposed to our continued 
presence in Iraq.  I am discouraging my 17-year-old from joining the 
military or even talking to recruiters.  But I will stand toe-to-toe against 
anyone who calls a Vietnam-era or any other veteran a baby killer -- someone 
who participated in "the carpet bombing of little kids with napalm" -- and  
I'll be damned if I'll let a comment like that go unchallenged, even from 
someone I consider worthy of more compassion than scorn.  This isn't debate, 
or witty repartee, or a verbal joust.  There's no rational thought or 
rhetorical prowess here; there isn't even a coherent statement, much less a 
reasoned argument.  It's just a diarrheac spewing of irrational ballast, and 
I'm afraid it makes it much easier for other discourse on Vision to slide 
down the same filthy slope.

(And yes, I'm aware that the author loathes me, but I don't hate him, and if 
he had a need I could fulfill, I'd try to help.  With a stern, motherly 
rebuke afterwards . . . )

Royally PO'd,

keely

From: Donovan Arnold 
To: Tom Hansen , vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] government checks? please!
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:22:55 -0700 (PDT)

Tom,

   Once again, I appreciate your taking a bullet in the head for this 
country.

   However, my attacks against you, were AFTER you attacked my Father and  
his service in the Military. He is your superior officer, an 0-5, and  who 
did  much for this country and his work has saved the lives  many 10000s of 
soldiers and the innocent, most notably, with providing  the electronic 
components for the Tomahawk Cruise missile.

   You attack my father, mother, sister, brother, cousin, or any relative  
and I only called you a couch potato??? Hey, you are lucky. I must have  
been having a good day, eh?

   The immaturity here Hansen, is you going after my Father, a military 
veteran, because you don't like me.

   That was way over the line and I responded, when I should just wrote  you 
off, with an equally offensive comment to you. Which apparently it  was 
because you have not shut up about it for 2 1/2 years.

   DO NOT MAKE FUN OF MY FATHER. And I will not call your war buddies dead  
beats that deserved to get shot in some pointless war. I believe anyone  
that hangs out with a grunt in the military that called you a friend  could 
not possible  be a  hero if all they make fun of the  people that design the 
planes and weapons that cover your ass from  enemy fire.

  I am so sick, of you playing the "I was in the  military" card. I don't 
give a rat's ass. I only care if you actually  did something when you were 
there. Anyone can put on a uniform. How  many pedophiles, rapists, 
murderers, traitors, former Nazis, and other  useless pieces of garbage have 
been in the military? Wearing a   military uniform does not make you a hero, 
Bush wore a military  uniform, it is what you do while wearing the uniform 
that makes you a  hero.

  All you have done with your military service  Mr. Hansen is use it to try 
and say that you are always right about  everything, and to put down many of 
your superior officers and fellow  solders.

  So stop telling me you were in the military, I  don't give a shit. You 
were in the military, so what. You joined an  organization which you knew at 
the time  was carpet bombing little  kids with napalm in Asia, whoopee!

   Regards,

   _DJA

Tom Hansen  wrote:  Thank you for your support, keely.

This is nothing new from Arnold.  This is the same idiot that made a similar
(almost identical) joke concerning two close friends of mine killed in
Vietnam.

At that time the discussion on V2020 concerned General Wesley Clark and his
(Gen Clark's) candidacy for president.  I had mentioned that I was assigned
to Fort Irwin under then Colonel Wesley Clark (Chief, Operations Group, Fort
Irwin, Calif) (remembering it now, Arnold??).  The discussion expanded to
include places I had served and friends I had known.  Throughout this
discussion Arnold was providing his "colorful" commentary about how I was a
couch potato and how friends of mine couldn't be any better.  I mentioned
John Wiggins and Dale Roderick and mentioned that they were both killed in
Vietnam.  Arnold responded with words to the affect that they were probably
the two biggest couch potatoes in the Army.

So, you see, keely.  Arnold hasn't chaned one iota in the past couple years.
   A skunk may change its stripes, but the smell long endures.

Seeya round town, Moscow.

t hansen
Moscow, Idaho

 >From: "keely emerinemix"
 >To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, thansen at moscow.com
 >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
 >Subject: [Vision2020] government checks?  please!
 >Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 04:57:21 -0700
 >
 >I've learned that answering him is like feeding stray cats, but I take
 >exception to Donovans saying that Tom Hansen has never had a job that
 >didn't result in a government paycheck.
 >
 >Tom is a veteran.  He served his country and served it well, as evidenced
 >by his long tenure and his honorable discharge.  He gave what he had and
 >earned every paycheck he got, and it offends me greatly to suggest that he
 >and other veterans simply relied on "government checks."  The government,
 >and all of us, relied on them.  Simple as that.
 >
 >I'm glad you're getting your education, Donovan, and doing it the hard 
way,
 >but judging from your take on voting and service to the country, you seem
 >not to have learned very much at all.
 >
 >keely

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