[Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .
Pat Kraut
pkraut at moscow.com
Tue Jan 31 14:14:22 PST 2006
I have suggested that Safeway won't survivie with or without a Wal-Mart and had a friend tell me why she won't shop there...its the card! When they first got the 'card' she tried to get some cherries locally that were marked 99 cents she thought until she got to the checker and was informed that price was only good if she had a 'card'. She walked out and has not been back and so have her children. I am well aware that many don't mind the stores keeping track of what they purchase and when but I do and know many others do also. It was a poor business decision and they will pay the marketplace price for it as well as Rite Aid and others. This friend is older and lived in Troy in the 1940's so I asked her if Troy ever had a clothing store and she said yes. When she moved there someone did but they got older and didn't stay in business and the persons family did not take it over so it has been a long time. I have heard that the new Wal-mart will hurt the small cities but I don't think it will more so than now because otherwise a 'short trip' to the store turns into hours from far enough out. Yes, those on the way home from work in the bigger cities will stop before they get that far but that has to be happening now doesn't it? Also, I recently had a problem with a tire and went to Les Shwab because I have their tires. A young man stopped me in the parking lot asked the problem and I went in and filled out a yellow form. Within less that 10 min he came in and said it had been a stem and it was fixed and to have a nice day! I want you to know that I am not likely to give up that service. Especially being an 'older' woman, alone and poor I need help and I am smart enough to know it. I do not know what service Wal-mart offers but I do not see me changing that part of my shopping.
I want you to know that I am not saying that two new stores won't make changes I am just saying that it all levels out and some survive and some don't...been that way a long time.
----- Original Message -----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: Pat Kraut
Cc: vision2020
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .
Thanks for your comments, Pat.
I agree that stores need to diversify in order to stay in business. This is one reason that Hodgins is still around and still able to provide local folks with a wonderful selection of toys, ones that are not available at Wal-Mart. I won't deny that there is an important message for local business owners to learn. But can the diversity that Hodgins currently offers compete with a Super Wal-Mart, which (I suspect) will have a pharmacy and a drug store in addition to a toy store? Must Safeway diversify and sell more than mere food and household supplies to stay in business? In the case of Safeway, we loose more than a local store since they regularly stock items on their shelves which are produced by local companies, items that the Super Wal-Mart will not stock. So there is a great deal of our local economy that will change with the additon of two Super Wal-Marts.
I wonder why you think that blame in all this lies with the unions, especially given Wal-Marts union-busting stance.
One more thing. I am not a fatalist. I am not certain that "we are not going to be able to completely stop Wal-mart or other stores from following their example of business." Ultimately we need to remind people about their true values as opposed to the ones that they reflect given the current business trends of stores like Wal-Mart. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy to bring on this kind of awareness. But it is not impossible.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Pat Kraut wrote:
=============
I have seen so many 'one item' stores close since moving to Moscow it would be hard to miss the point. A baby store that only sells baby stuff, a women's store that only sell high priced items, a 'teeny bopper' store that only has clothes that fit a 15 year old, a toy store that only sells high priced toys that and so on and so on. If a store does not sell a variety of items it won't make it in small cities. Especially if, as in the case of KB they sell only toys at a price that is twice what they are in Lewiston or Spokane. The first week I lived here the people I met were delighted that I knew how to get around in Spokane so they could go shopping up there and not stay downtown. I could get to the Northtown mall and they were thrilled and I became very popular. That was 1961 and nothing has changed except that lots of trips are made to Lewiston now and they didn't then. The best kind of stores are ones that sell lots of items at a price most people can afford and Sam Walton built a business based on that premise. He was full of new ideas and made it work for him...just like others before him who figured out how to do it for themselves and make a fortune. It is the American dream. It is what freedom means...being able to make choices at all levels. Even at the level of making obscene amounts of money. Do we need to do some checks? yes obviously, but we are not going to be able to completely stop Wal-mart or other stores from following their example of business. Unions have made it difficult to do business in the USA for sometime now and they are going to have to be reigned in also...look at autos. It is one of the problems we have and Congress is too busy looking at other things to really address the need...but it will be fixed in the marketplace just as other things have been in the past.
----- Original Message -----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: Jeff Harkins
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .
Jeff,
Thanks, very much, for the explanation of KB Toys demise. Apologies to J. Ford who hinted at a similar point that I failed to investigate further. (I did a quick search for KB on the web, and find a website, thought that they were still in business.) I don't remember Gary saying anything even close to the explanation below, but either way the details are helpful.
A few points though. The Moscow store was closed well before the Spokane store. I find it hard to believe that local market factors had nothing to do with this. But this is a minor point.
A somewhat more substantive point is that toy stores like KB Toys, as well as grocery stores like Albertsons, are having a difficult time staying in business given the success of Super Wal-Marts. Jeff, you know a lot about economics but you know nothing about toys if you think that the selection at Wal-Mart and the selection at KB Toys is the same. It just isn't. Trust me. I've spent a lot of time in the last few years in each (I shoped at Wal-Mart regularly up until 2 months ago). Just taking hot wheels cars, for instance, KB had a much better selection.
Further, my claim was not that "good businesses were being driven out by bad businesses." My point was that the so-called 'free market' does not always lead to an increase in consumer choice. It was a rebutal of an old article of economic faith uttered continuously by Donovan but, I believe, also by yourself and Gary.
Let's skip the KB example since there are facts about that case of which I am clearly ignorant. Let's, instead, borrow a piece of economic analysis offered by Gary in a previous post. There he claimed that KB Toys and its ilk were being pushed out by a move toward computer games and other electronic toys as well as the increase of web-based toy stores. It just so happens that (a) I don't like computer games and I don't want my son to play them (I'll save you the explanation) and (b) I don't like to order things on-line (I'll save you the explanation here, too). Sure, I'm old-fashioned but my point is the the so-called free market has not lead to a greater number of choices for the consumer. We are forced now by 'consumer demand' to purchase new and different toys in stores or older models on-line. There is only an appearance of an increase of choice provided that you happen to like what the majority of people like. If your tastes and inclinations go against the majority, too bad for you.
Again, Gary might say something about my selfish motivations but he is (again) missing the point. I ask you, people of Moscow: Do you live here because Moscow is like every place else or because it is different? Do you think of yourself as someone who thinks just like everyone else or someone who thinks outside the box? If the answer to both is the latter, do what you can to CHOOSE now to ensure that Moscow remains unique before low-cost and convenience turns it into Anytown, USA.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Jeff Harkins wrote:
=============
Before I invest the time necessary to unravel the
comments by Mr. Schou, I need to divest myself
from the claim by Ms. Opyr that I asked for an
example of a good business driven out by a bad
(or whatever). I made no such request. I did
respond to the query raised by Gary (which I
considered an appropriate question, given the
claim by J Campbell that good businesses were
being driven out by bad businesses - the thread
is clear - J Campbell offered up the example)
I provided evidence supporting a position that KB
Toys left Moscow, entered into E-commerce as a
result of being convicted of charges of price
manipulation, which appears to have resulted in
their declaration of bankruptcy. If there was a
Wal-Mart connection, it doesn't appear to be part of the public record.
Ms. Opyr appears to be careless in her reading
and quick to indict. It would make V2020 more
useful as a public forum if you would be more careful in your posts.
I am unsure of the value of knowing Ms. Opyr's
consumption habits. Personal consumption habits
are ...... personal. Oddly enough, I found a
very different toy selection at Wal-Mart than she
described. While shopping for toys for nieces
and nephews this Christmas season, I noted that
most all the retailers in the area carried pretty
much the same toys (my guess is that their
inventory is driven by what they perceive their
market demand is - ah - what the kids want!) The
real challenge was to find a retailer that
actually had the item in stock (not sold
out). Some of the items were found in the malls,
some at Walmart - alas - some could only be found in Spokane.
But, as to the availability of KB Toys, their
products are still available through their E-Commerce site.
Finally, I took no personal position on whether
KB was a good business or a bad business - we all
have our personal and subjective standards for
such qualitative judgments. I did make the claim
that KB Toys was not a superior business and I
did provide additional information so that those
interested would have more info about the factors
leading to KB's decision to close the Moscow Mall store.
Now, to the Schou matter .... till then.
At 03:43 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote:
>Dear Visionaries:
>
>Jeff Harkins and Gary Crabtree asked a few days
>ago for examples of good businesses driven
>out
>by bad. Joe Campbell attempted to supply them
>with just such an example in the demise of
>KayBee Toys. The problem here, however, is not
>with Joe's answer but with Harkins' and
>Crabtree's question, which is a classic example
>of petititio elenchi, i.e., begging the
>question.
>
>The underlying assumption in Harkins/Crabtree's
>reasoning is that the "good" or "superior"
>
>business is always the one that survives. But
>that reasoning depends on how you define
>superior. KayBee Toys, which offered a
>demonstrably superior selection of goods than
>WalMart,
>went out of business. Is WalMart therefore the
>better store? Define better. WalMart
>offers five
>aisles of cheap, plastic, Chinese-made toys,
>none of which I'd care to purchase. Like
>Joe, I prefer
>to buy my kids' toys at Hodgins
>Drugs. Why? Quality and selection. It's also possible
>at Hodgins
>to buy the occasional union-made toy. Flip the
>toy and read the box. If it's made in a
>country
>noted for its poor labor practices, tell your
>kids, "Sorry, but I suspect that someone
>your age
>manufactured this doll in an overseas sweatshop." Move on to the next item.
>
>(There, Dale -- more evidence for your blog that I'm a communist.)
>
>In Harkins/Crabtree's view, it would seem that
>cheaper is always better. Perhaps
>convenience
>also plays some role (KayBee Toys didn't sell
>toothpaste or underwear) but weren't we also
>
>talking about expansion of choice? How does
>WalMart (or a WalMart Supercenter) represent
>a
>genuine expansion of choice? What WalMart
>offers is an inferior selection of toys, most
>of poor
>quality, but it offers them at cheap prices and
>conveniently locates them between the
>furnace
>filters and the dog food. My expanded choice
>seems to be mere convenience and the chance
>to
>buy something crappy and disposable for my
>kids. It's the bargain that isn't a bargain --
>it's
>penny-wise and pound-foolish.
>
>We have a WalMart already. We need WalMart
>Supercenters in both Moscow and Pullman why?
>Because Winco, Rosauers, Safeway, the Co-Op,
>Dissmore's, the Pullman Safeway, Tri-State,
>Hodgins, Les Schwab, Bruneel, Sears,
>Deranleau's, Bookpeople, Hastings, Gottschalk's, the
>Bon,
>Ross Dress for Less, RiteAid, JoAnn's,
>HyperSpud, Paradise Creek Bicycles, Paradise Ridge
>Records, Goodwill, Shopko, the Internet, and
>Moscow's existing WalMart aren't offering us
>enough choice? Or because they're not offering us enough cheap crap?
>
>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>www.joanopyr.com
>
>
>---------------------------------------------
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>http://www.fsr.com/
>
>
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_____________________________________________________
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