[Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Sat Jan 21 22:47:26 PST 2006
"I personally don't think that the pledge of allegiance
is needed to start an ordinary meeting of council."-J. Dickinson
Nope, John, it is not needed to conduct regular business or
any other business of the city either, you can operate without it.
I am just rather shocked that you do not want to say it; and to the
point where you and others would actually go through a formal
process to remove it. You have already spent more time and
energy removing it and defending the decision then you would
have spend just saying it for the whole year. Which indicates a
overwhelming commitment to its removal.
Take Care,
_DJA
John Dickinson <johnd at moscow.com> wrote: Hi again,
Having mentioned that the pledge of allegiance became a part of every
council meeting only after 9/11, I thought it would be clear that we no
longer needed to have the pledge at each council meeting - just as we have
stopped many of the patriotic activities that were daily common activities
then. I think we were all helped in that tragic time by the sight of flags
flying at almost every house in the country. As a nation, we were united in
the best of what this country stands for, our essence was being attacked. We
needed to tell everyone we knew that we are good people with high ideals and
that we did not deserve to have our essence torn from us.
We have moved from that moment. We are still a country with high ideals and
a future full of wonderous gifts to give. I personally don't think that the
pledge of allegiance is needed to start an ordinary meeting of council. One
of the many things I love about City Council and local government generally
is that the issues that get decided at almost completely devoid of politics
as we know it - they are issues about healthy safe neighborhoods,
transportation opportunities, economic well-being of the community. None are
controversial, though none are easy to implement. These are local issues,
concerns of the members of this community. The federal government is not
going to help us get a four way stop at the corner of Mountain View and D
Streets.
John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:48 PM
> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; johnd at moscow.com; pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com;
> nchaney at moscow.com
> Cc: aaronament at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com;
> blambert at ci.moscow.id.us; jweber at ci.moscow.id.us; lpall at moscow.com;
> bstout at ci.moscow.id.us
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>
> To ALL,
>
> I can't believe it Donovan Arnold and I have something in
common.
> I really can't believe that council has decided to limit the "Pledge" to
> certain functions. I don't know if school kids still say it every day or
not
> but they should. This pledge is a method that installs respect for the
Flag,
> country and those who have sacrificed for it. If the words "under God"
> offend that is one thing, but too not say the Pledge because of thinking
it
> is redundant, is offensive to some. If we continue with this
> rationalization,what would be next? Maybe as Mr Dickinson would suggest,
to
> limit the times we sing the national anthem. How about we only raise and
> lower the flag on the Forth of July or Memorial day. OR not at all because
> it could offend some.
> Well Im sorry that Mr Dickinson and Chasuk have trouble with a
> little bit of community outspoken pride.
> Chasuk says; "I'm am one of
> those who inwardly groans every time I encounter flag-waving or
> loyalty oaths;
>
> Sorry to here it. I'm one of those who get the chills each time I see the
> flag or hear the Anthem. In fact I've shed a tear.
>
> I do agree that saying the Pledge will not change ones voting record or
> conduct, but the pledge goes further than that. The Pledge,Anthem, and
Flag
> have meaning. Buy limiting these things to certain functions is
> disrespecting our nation.
>
> I have no doubt that our council members will do there best for this town,
> saying the pledge or not, will not effect that. However, them saying it
sets
> a good example to our children and shows respect of these valued things.
>
> Matt Decker
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: John Dickinson , "'Phil Nisbet'"
> >
, nchaney at moscow.com
> >CC: aaronament at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com, johnd at moscow.com,
> >blambert at ci.moscow.id.us, jweber at ci.moscow.id.us, "'Linda Pall'"
> >, bstout at ci.moscow.id.us
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
> >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:37:17 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >John and Nancy,
> >
> > I want to thank you for having the courage to write Vision2020 and
> >publicly address the issue of the Pledge of Allegiance.
> >
> > However, I want to say that it saddens my heart and upsets my stomach
> >that you have removed the pledge of allegiance to our flag from your
> >bi-monthly meetings. I strongly believe that this is a step in the wrong
> >direction, particularly at this time.
> >
> > Granted, the pledge is abused, misused, uttered with content,
> >repetition, and without meaning to many, and its purpose is lost on many
> >more. But regardless, the pledge was meant to illustrate to the public
> >your loyalty to the people. It is a reminder to the corruptible, to
> >politicians that forget why they are there after many years of service,
> >and to those about to cast a vote to spite a political enemy or help a
> >personal friend, that their vote and loyalty belongs to and for all the
> >PEOPLE of Moscow, the people of Idaho, and the people of the United
> >States.
> >
> > With all of the corruption, back room deals, and dishonest politicians
> >in our mists, I believe it is important that every elected official make
a
> >public statement before casting a vote that they acknowledge publicly
WHY
> >and for WHO they are casting their vote.
> >
> > I am sorry to hear, Councilman Dickinson, that saying the pledge twice
a
> >month is too much for you. I for one feel that we should be honored to
say
> >it at least as much.
> >
> > The irony here is that we force our children every school day to take
a
> >loyalty to the nation when they know not the meaning of the word, and
the
> >politicos that need to remind themselves and the people why they are
> >elected to office, excuse themselves from such commitments.
> >
> > Mayor Cheney, Councilman Dickinson, and the other member of the
> >council, if you feel your oath to this city is unquestionable, if you
have
> > unquestionable loyalty to this nation, if you do not question your
> >pride in this nation, then their should be no question to your
> >willingness to say the pledge twice a month that children say five times
a
> >week.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Donovan J Arnold
> >Proud United States Citizen and Moscow Resident
> >
> >
> >
> >John Dickinson wrote: Visionaries-
> >
> >I am one of the council members that asked that we not say the pledge of
> >allegiance to the flag at each council meeting. Before 9/11, the pledge
was
> >said at council meetings that were near special national celebrations,
such
> >as the Fourth of July. Since 9/11, the pledge has been said at each
council
> >meeting. My primary objection to making the pledge pro forma is that it
> >dilutes its meaning by saying it all the time. It seems similar the
singing
> >the national anthem before baseball games - begun after WWI, I think it
> >would be more meaningful to sing our national anthem on days of
celebration
> >or on days of national trauma.
> >
> >If there are some that worry about a council members commitment to city,
> >county, state and nation - then I think we'd need to have a more
inclusive
> >ritual to begin each meeting, something that included the city, county,
> >state parts.
> >
> >Every moment since I was elected two years ago I have felt the weight of
> >responsibility that I have been granted by the people of this community.
It
> >is a joyous burden to feel. I thank you all for helping to make Moscow a
> >place I could never leave.
> >
> >John Dickinson
> >Moscow City Council
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > > On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
> > > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:28 PM
> > > To: nchaney at moscow.com
> > > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
> > >
> > > Nancy
> > >
> > > Just for the sake of the public's right to know, which council members
> > > exactly felt that the Pledge should not be offered? Not to question
> >their
> > > feelings or their sincerity, I just think that the public has a right
to
> > > know who exactly among the council feels that the pledge does not
> >belong.
> > > Then I would ask, did the council vote on removal of the pledge and
how
> >was
> > > the agenda changed to reflect the change from former procedure?
> > >
> > > I guess what I am wondering here is if this is an issue for some
> >particular
> > > reason. Does one or more of the council members feel that they can
not
> > > partake in the Pledge of Allegiance due to some specific detail
> >contained
> >in
> > > the pledge? Has the whole council decided to alter its conduct to
> > > accommodate this concern of the few who have a problem?
> > >
> > > I mean for all I know the reason somebody does not want to take the
> >pledge
> > > is because they disagree with the statement "liberty and justice for
> >all".
> > > Knowing that the council is not loaded down with people who oppose our
> > > Republican form of government would be nice. So what’s the beef that
> >the
> > > few have with the Pledge?
> > >
> > > Phil Nisbet
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Nancy Chaney"
> > > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Area Man
> > > >(Dan C)'" ,
> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
> > > >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:12:49 -0800
> > > >
> > > >Donovan, just so you’ll know, Dan’s V2020 opener about “
humanness”
was
> > > >the end of my reading of a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in
> > > >acknowledgement of his birthday and in support of human rights. In
its
> > > >entirety, it says: “We must work unceasingly to uplift this nation
that
> > > >we love to a higher plateau of compassion, to a more noble expression
> >of
> > > >humanness.” In my book, that also speaks to loyalty to country.
> > > >
> > > >I acknowledge that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a big deal to
> > > >many people. I would argue that contemplating the true meanings of
> >those
> > > >words is a bigger deal. Whatever their personal reasons, I believe
that
> > > >City Council members who asked that we not include the Pledge, are
> > > >honorable and sincerely driven to serve this community.
> > > >
> > > >I get shivers when the flag goes by, but I appreciate that loving the
> > > >foundations and people of ones Country is distinct from being made to
> > > >say particular words before each Council meeting. Please be aware
that
> > > >upon being sworn in, local elected officials sign an oath to “support
> > > >the Constitution of the United States and the State of Idaho, and the
> > > >Laws and Ordinances of the City of Moscow, and
to the best of
> >(his/her)
> > > >ability, faithfully perform the duties of the office
” I am confident
> > > >that we all took that oath very seriously and considered the meaning
of
> > > >every word and our ability to abide by them in good conscience. Thank
> > > >you for being concerned.
> > > >
> > > >Nancy Chaney
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> > > >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > > >Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 2:10 PM
> > > >To: Area Man (Dan C); vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
> > > >
> > > >Dan,
> > > >
> > > >Thanks for bringing this up. I think any person who cannot show a
> > > >loyalty to the United States over other nations has no business being
> >in
> > > >an elected office in the United States.
> > > >
> > > >I think the people in any city, county, state, or country deserve, at
> > > >minimum, the knowledge that their elected leaders are on their team.
If
> > > >an elected leader cannot say, "Yes, I affirm my allegiance to this
> > > >country, state, county, and city FIRST.", I think that disqualifies
> >them
> > > >from the position. Saying, "I am for Humans" just does not cut it for
> > > >me.
> > > >
> > > >-DJA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Area Man (Dan C)" wrote:
> > > >Members of the Vizzz,
> > > >
> > > >I was perusing the agenda for the last city council meeting and
noticed
> > > >the Pledge of Allegiance was no longer an agenda item. I could not
> > > >attend the meet! ing since my delicate flower was working basketball
> > > >games
> > > >(Go Bears!) and someone had to stay home and make sure the kids
> >couldn't
> > > >escape from their restraints (yes, I'm being facetious).
> > > >
> > > >I listened to the city's recording of the council meeting, but the
> > > >recording starts with Mayor Chaney saying: " . . . expression of
> > > >humanness. With that we'll call the meeting to order." Then they move
> > > >into the consent agenda and public comment period.
> > > >
> > > >Does the council no longer begin meetings with the Pledge, or was it
> > > >just not recorded? If the council no longer begins with the Pledge,
why
> > > >not?
> > > >
> > > >curiosity's killin' me, and I ain't no cat,
> > > >
> > > >DC
> > > >
> > > >_____________________________________________________
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> > > >mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> > > >
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> >
> >_____________________________________________________
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