<div id="RTEContent"> <pre><tt>"I personally don't think that the pledge of allegiance <br>is needed to start an ordinary meeting of council."-J. Dickinson<br><br>Nope, John, it is not needed to conduct regular business or<br>any other business of the city either, you can operate without it.<br>I am just rather shocked that you do not want to say it; and to the<br>point where you and others would actually go through a formal<br>process to remove it. You have already spent more time and<br>energy removing it and defending the decision then you would<br>have spend just saying it for the whole year. Which indicates a <br>overwhelming commitment to its removal.<br><br>Take Care,<br><br>_DJA <br> <br></tt></pre> <br><br><b><i>John Dickinson <johnd@moscow.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Hi again,<br><br>Having mentioned that the pledge of allegiance became a part of
every<br>council meeting only after 9/11, I thought it would be clear that we no<br>longer needed to have the pledge at each council meeting - just as we have<br>stopped many of the patriotic activities that were daily common activities<br>then. I think we were all helped in that tragic time by the sight of flags<br>flying at almost every house in the country. As a nation, we were united in<br>the best of what this country stands for, our essence was being attacked. We<br>needed to tell everyone we knew that we are good people with high ideals and<br>that we did not deserve to have our essence torn from us.<br><br>We have moved from that moment. We are still a country with high ideals and<br>a future full of wonderous gifts to give. I personally don't think that the<br>pledge of allegiance is needed to start an ordinary meeting of council. One<br>of the many things I love about City Council and local government generally<br>is that the issues that get decided at almost comp!
letely
devoid of politics<br>as we know it - they are issues about healthy safe neighborhoods,<br>transportation opportunities, economic well-being of the community. None are<br>controversial, though none are easy to implement. These are local issues,<br>concerns of the members of this community. The federal government is not<br>going to help us get a four way stop at the corner of Mountain View and D<br>Streets. <br><br>John<br><br><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com]<br>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:48 PM<br>> To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com; johnd@moscow.com; pcnisbet1@hotmail.com;<br>> nchaney@moscow.com<br>> Cc: aaronament@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com;<br>> blambert@ci.moscow.id.us; jweber@ci.moscow.id.us; lpall@moscow.com;<br>> bstout@ci.moscow.id.us<br>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge<br>> <br>> To ALL,<br>> <br>> I can't believe it Donovan!
Arnold
and I have something in<br>common.<br>> I really can't believe that council has decided to limit the "Pledge" to<br>> certain functions. I don't know if school kids still say it every day or<br>not<br>> but they should. This pledge is a method that installs respect for the<br>Flag,<br>> country and those who have sacrificed for it. If the words "under God"<br>> offend that is one thing, but too not say the Pledge because of thinking<br>it<br>> is redundant, is offensive to some. If we continue with this<br>> rationalization,what would be next? Maybe as Mr Dickinson would suggest,<br>to<br>> limit the times we sing the national anthem. How about we only raise and<br>> lower the flag on the Forth of July or Memorial day. OR not at all because<br>> it could offend some.<br>> Well Im sorry that Mr Dickinson and Chasuk have trouble with a<br>> little bit of community outspoken pride.<br>> Chasuk says; "I'm am one of<br>> those!
who
inwardly groans every time I encounter flag-waving or<br>> loyalty oaths;<br>> <br>> Sorry to here it. I'm one of those who get the chills each time I see the<br>> flag or hear the Anthem. In fact I've shed a tear.<br>> <br>> I do agree that saying the Pledge will not change ones voting record or<br>> conduct, but the pledge goes further than that. The Pledge,Anthem, and<br>Flag<br>> have meaning. Buy limiting these things to certain functions is<br>> disrespecting our nation.<br>> <br>> I have no doubt that our council members will do there best for this town,<br>> saying the pledge or not, will not effect that. However, them saying it<br>sets<br>> a good example to our children and shows respect of these valued things.<br>> <br>> Matt Decker<br>> <br>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 @yahoo.com=""><br>> >To: John Dickinson <johnd @moscow.com="">, "'Phil Nisbet'"<br>> ><pcnisbet1 @hotmail.com="">,!
nchaney@moscow.com<br>> >CC: aaronament@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com, johnd@moscow.com,<br>> >blambert@ci.moscow.id.us, jweber@ci.moscow.id.us, "'Linda Pall'"<br>> ><lpall @moscow.com="">, bstout@ci.moscow.id.us<br>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge<br>> >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:37:17 -0800 (PST)<br>> ><br>> >John and Nancy,<br>> ><br>> > I want to thank you for having the courage to write Vision2020 and<br>> >publicly address the issue of the Pledge of Allegiance.<br>> ><br>> > However, I want to say that it saddens my heart and upsets my stomach<br>> >that you have removed the pledge of allegiance to our flag from your<br>> >bi-monthly meetings. I strongly believe that this is a step in the wrong<br>> >direction, particularly at this time.<br>> ><br>> > Granted, the pledge is abused, misused, uttered with content,<br>> >rep!
etition,
and without meaning to many, and its purpose is lost on many<br>> >more. But regardless, the pledge was meant to illustrate to the public<br>> >your loyalty to the people. It is a reminder to the corruptible, to<br>> >politicians that forget why they are there after many years of service,<br>> >and to those about to cast a vote to spite a political enemy or help a<br>> >personal friend, that their vote and loyalty belongs to and for all the<br>> >PEOPLE of Moscow, the people of Idaho, and the people of the United<br>> >States.<br>> ><br>> > With all of the corruption, back room deals, and dishonest politicians<br>> >in our mists, I believe it is important that every elected official make<br>a<br>> >public statement before casting a vote that they acknowledge publicly<br>WHY<br>> >and for WHO they are casting their vote.<br>> ><br>> > I am sorry to hear, Councilman Dickinson, that sa!
ying the
pledge twice<br>a<br>> >month is too much for you. I for one feel that we should be honored to<br>say<br>> >it at least as much.<br>> ><br>> > The irony here is that we force our children every school day to take<br>a<br>> >loyalty to the nation when they know not the meaning of the word, and<br>the<br>> >politicos that need to remind themselves and the people why they are<br>> >elected to office, excuse themselves from such commitments.<br>> ><br>> > Mayor Cheney, Councilman Dickinson, and the other member of the<br>> >council, if you feel your oath to this city is unquestionable, if you<br>have<br>> > unquestionable loyalty to this nation, if you do not question your<br>> >pride in this nation, then their should be no question to your<br>> >willingness to say the pledge twice a month that children say five times<br>a<br>> >week.<br>> ><br>> > Sincerely,<br>>
><br>> > Donovan J Arnold<br>> >Proud United States Citizen and Moscow Resident<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >John Dickinson <johnd @moscow.com=""> wrote: Visionaries-<br>> ><br>> >I am one of the council members that asked that we not say the pledge of<br>> >allegiance to the flag at each council meeting. Before 9/11, the pledge<br>was<br>> >said at council meetings that were near special national celebrations,<br>such<br>> >as the Fourth of July. Since 9/11, the pledge has been said at each<br>council<br>> >meeting. My primary objection to making the pledge pro forma is that it<br>> >dilutes its meaning by saying it all the time. It seems similar the<br>singing<br>> >the national anthem before baseball games - begun after WWI, I think it<br>> >would be more meaningful to sing our national anthem on days of<br>celebration<br>> >or on days of national trauma.<br>> ><br>&!
gt;
>If there are some that worry about a council members commitment to city,<br>> >county, state and nation - then I think we'd need to have a more<br>inclusive<br>> >ritual to begin each meeting, something that included the city, county,<br>> >state parts.<br>> ><br>> >Every moment since I was elected two years ago I have felt the weight of<br>> >responsibility that I have been granted by the people of this community.<br>It<br>> >is a joyous burden to feel. I thank you all for helping to make Moscow a<br>> >place I could never leave.<br>> ><br>> >John Dickinson<br>> >Moscow City Council<br>> ><br>> > > -----Original Message-----<br>> > > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<br>> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>> > > On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet<br>> > > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:28 PM<br>> > > To: nchaney@moscow.com<br>> > > Cc:
vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge<br>> > ><br>> > > Nancy<br>> > ><br>> > > Just for the sake of the public's right to know, which council members<br>> > > exactly felt that the Pledge should not be offered? Not to question<br>> >their<br>> > > feelings or their sincerity, I just think that the public has a right<br>to<br>> > > know who exactly among the council feels that the pledge does not<br>> >belong.<br>> > > Then I would ask, did the council vote on removal of the pledge and<br>how<br>> >was<br>> > > the agenda changed to reflect the change from former procedure?<br>> > ><br>> > > I guess what I am wondering here is if this is an issue for some<br>> >particular<br>> > > reason. Does one or more of the council members feel that they can<br>not<br>> > > partake in the P!
ledge of
Allegiance due to some specific detail<br>> >contained<br>> >in<br>> > > the pledge? Has the whole council decided to alter its conduct to<br>> > > accommodate this concern of the few who have a problem?<br>> > ><br>> > > I mean for all I know the reason somebody does not want to take the<br>> >pledge<br>> > > is because they disagree with the statement "liberty and justice for<br>> >all".<br>> > > Knowing that the council is not loaded down with people who oppose our<br>> > > Republican form of government would be nice. So whats the beef that<br>> >the<br>> > > few have with the Pledge?<br>> > ><br>> > > Phil Nisbet<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > >From: "Nancy Chaney"<br>> > > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Area Man<br>> > > >(Dan C)'" ,<br>> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision20!
20] City
Council and the Pledge<br>> > > >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:12:49 -0800<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Donovan, just so youll know, Dans V2020 opener about
humanness<br>was<br>> > > >the end of my reading of a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in<br>> > > >acknowledgement of his birthday and in support of human rights. In<br>its<br>> > > >entirety, it says: We must work unceasingly to uplift this nation<br>that<br>> > > >we love to a higher plateau of compassion, to a more noble expression<br>> >of<br>> > > >humanness. In my book, that also speaks to loyalty to country.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >I acknowledge that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a big deal to<br>> > > >many people. I would argue that contemplating the true meanings of<br>> >those<br>> > > >words is a bigger deal. Whatever their personal reasons, I
believe<br>that<br>> > > >City Council members who asked that we not include the Pledge, are<br>> > > >honorable and sincerely driven to serve this community.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >I get shivers when the flag goes by, but I appreciate that loving the<br>> > > >foundations and people of ones Country is distinct from being made to<br>> > > >say particular words before each Council meeting. Please be aware<br>that<br>> > > >upon being sworn in, local elected officials sign an oath to support<br>> > > >the Constitution of the United States and the State of Idaho, and the<br>> > > >Laws and Ordinances of the City of Moscow, and
to the best of<br>> >(his/her)<br>> > > >ability, faithfully perform the duties of the office
I am confident<br>> > > >that we all took that oath very seriously and considered the meaning<br>of<br>> > > >!
every
word and our ability to abide by them in good conscience. Thank<br>> > > >you for being concerned.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Nancy Chaney<br>> > > >-----Original Message-----<br>> > > >From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<br>> > > >[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold<br>> > > >Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 2:10 PM<br>> > > >To: Area Man (Dan C); vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Dan,<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Thanks for bringing this up. I think any person who cannot show a<br>> > > >loyalty to the United States over other nations has no business being<br>> >in<br>> > > >an elected office in the United States.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >I think the people in any city, county, state!
, or
country deserve, at<br>> > > >minimum, the knowledge that their elected leaders are on their team.<br>If<br>> > > >an elected leader cannot say, "Yes, I affirm my allegiance to this<br>> > > >country, state, county, and city FIRST.", I think that disqualifies<br>> >them<br>> > > >from the position. Saying, "I am for Humans" just does not cut it for<br>> > > >me.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >-DJA<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > >"Area Man (Dan C)" wrote:<br>> > > >Members of the Vizzz,<br>> > > ><br>> > > >I was perusing the agenda for the last city council meeting and<br>noticed<br>> > > >the Pledge of Allegiance was no longer an agenda item. I could not<br>> > > >attend the meet! ing since my delicate flower was working basketball<br>> > > >games<br>> > > >(Go Bears!) and so!
meone had
to stay home and make sure the kids<br>> >couldn't<br>> > > >escape from their restraints (yes, I'm being facetious).<br>> > > ><br>> > > >I listened to the city's recording of the council meeting, but the<br>> > > >recording starts with Mayor Chaney saying: " . . . expression of<br>> > > >humanness. With that we'll call the meeting to order." Then they move<br>> > > >into the consent agenda and public comment period.<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Does the council no longer begin meetings with the Pledge, or was it<br>> > > >just not recorded? If the council no longer begins with the Pledge,<br>why<br>> > > >not?<br>> > > ><br>> > > >curiosity's killin' me, and I ain't no cat,<br>> > > ><br>> > > >DC<br>> > > ><br>> > > >_____________________________________________________<br>> > &!
gt;
>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > >http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<br>> > > ><br>> > > > _____<br>> > > ><br>> > > >Yahoo! Photos<br>> > > >Ring in the New Year with Photo<br>> > > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>>p:/us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/photos/evt=38087/*http:/pg.photos.ya<br>> > > >hoo.com/ph/page?.file=calendar_splash.html&.dir=> Calendars. Add<br>> > > >photos, events, holidays, whatever.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > >_____________________________________________________<br>> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > > serving the communities!
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Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<br>> > ><br>> > > _________________________________________________________________<br>> > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now!<br>> > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/<br>> > ><br>> > > _____________________________________________________<br>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>>
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