[Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Sun Jan 22 08:51:17 PST 2006
John, Nicely said.
Harder yet than getting a four way stop at Mountain View and D is enforcing
it. Those familiar with the four way stops at Blaine and 6th and Blaine and
White know that many drivers do not come to a full stop at these
intersections; some barely slow down.
I hope that John and the city council will take a more active role in the
enforcement policies of the MPD.
See http://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/DriverServices/driver_manual.pdf Chapter 2.
Note that "Stop" means a full stop, not a so-called "moving stop."
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dickinson" <johnd at moscow.com>
To: "'Matt Decker'" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
<pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>; <nchaney at moscow.com>
Cc: <aaronament at moscow.com>; <jweber at ci.moscow.id.us>;
<blambert at ci.moscow.id.us>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <lpall at moscow.com>;
<bstout at ci.moscow.id.us>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
> Hi again,
>
> Having mentioned that the pledge of allegiance became a part of every
> council meeting only after 9/11, I thought it would be clear that we no
> longer needed to have the pledge at each council meeting - just as we have
> stopped many of the patriotic activities that were daily common activities
> then. I think we were all helped in that tragic time by the sight of flags
> flying at almost every house in the country. As a nation, we were united
> in
> the best of what this country stands for, our essence was being attacked.
> We
> needed to tell everyone we knew that we are good people with high ideals
> and
> that we did not deserve to have our essence torn from us.
>
> We have moved from that moment. We are still a country with high ideals
> and
> a future full of wonderous gifts to give. I personally don't think that
> the
> pledge of allegiance is needed to start an ordinary meeting of council.
> One
> of the many things I love about City Council and local government
> generally
> is that the issues that get decided at almost completely devoid of
> politics
> as we know it - they are issues about healthy safe neighborhoods,
> transportation opportunities, economic well-being of the community. None
> are
> controversial, though none are easy to implement. These are local issues,
> concerns of the members of this community. The federal government is not
> going to help us get a four way stop at the corner of Mountain View and D
> Streets.
>
> John
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:48 PM
>> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; johnd at moscow.com;
>> pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com;
>> nchaney at moscow.com
>> Cc: aaronament at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com;
>> blambert at ci.moscow.id.us; jweber at ci.moscow.id.us; lpall at moscow.com;
>> bstout at ci.moscow.id.us
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>>
>> To ALL,
>>
>> I can't believe it Donovan Arnold and I have something in
> common.
>> I really can't believe that council has decided to limit the "Pledge" to
>> certain functions. I don't know if school kids still say it every day or
> not
>> but they should. This pledge is a method that installs respect for the
> Flag,
>> country and those who have sacrificed for it. If the words "under God"
>> offend that is one thing, but too not say the Pledge because of thinking
> it
>> is redundant, is offensive to some. If we continue with this
>> rationalization,what would be next? Maybe as Mr Dickinson would suggest,
> to
>> limit the times we sing the national anthem. How about we only raise and
>> lower the flag on the Forth of July or Memorial day. OR not at all
>> because
>> it could offend some.
>> Well Im sorry that Mr Dickinson and Chasuk have trouble with a
>> little bit of community outspoken pride.
>> Chasuk says; "I'm am one of
>> those who inwardly groans every time I encounter flag-waving or
>> loyalty oaths;
>>
>> Sorry to here it. I'm one of those who get the chills each time I see the
>> flag or hear the Anthem. In fact I've shed a tear.
>>
>> I do agree that saying the Pledge will not change ones voting record or
>> conduct, but the pledge goes further than that. The Pledge,Anthem, and
> Flag
>> have meaning. Buy limiting these things to certain functions is
>> disrespecting our nation.
>>
>> I have no doubt that our council members will do there best for this
>> town,
>> saying the pledge or not, will not effect that. However, them saying it
> sets
>> a good example to our children and shows respect of these valued things.
>>
>> Matt Decker
>>
>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> >To: John Dickinson <johnd at moscow.com>, "'Phil Nisbet'"
>> ><pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>, nchaney at moscow.com
>> >CC: aaronament at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com, johnd at moscow.com,
>> >blambert at ci.moscow.id.us, jweber at ci.moscow.id.us, "'Linda Pall'"
>> ><lpall at moscow.com>, bstout at ci.moscow.id.us
>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>> >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:37:17 -0800 (PST)
>> >
>> >John and Nancy,
>> >
>> > I want to thank you for having the courage to write Vision2020 and
>> >publicly address the issue of the Pledge of Allegiance.
>> >
>> > However, I want to say that it saddens my heart and upsets my stomach
>> >that you have removed the pledge of allegiance to our flag from your
>> >bi-monthly meetings. I strongly believe that this is a step in the
>> >wrong
>> >direction, particularly at this time.
>> >
>> > Granted, the pledge is abused, misused, uttered with content,
>> >repetition, and without meaning to many, and its purpose is lost on
>> >many
>> >more. But regardless, the pledge was meant to illustrate to the public
>> >your loyalty to the people. It is a reminder to the corruptible, to
>> >politicians that forget why they are there after many years of service,
>> >and to those about to cast a vote to spite a political enemy or help a
>> >personal friend, that their vote and loyalty belongs to and for all the
>> >PEOPLE of Moscow, the people of Idaho, and the people of the United
>> >States.
>> >
>> > With all of the corruption, back room deals, and dishonest
>> > politicians
>> >in our mists, I believe it is important that every elected official
>> >make
> a
>> >public statement before casting a vote that they acknowledge publicly
> WHY
>> >and for WHO they are casting their vote.
>> >
>> > I am sorry to hear, Councilman Dickinson, that saying the pledge
>> > twice
> a
>> >month is too much for you. I for one feel that we should be honored to
> say
>> >it at least as much.
>> >
>> > The irony here is that we force our children every school day to take
> a
>> >loyalty to the nation when they know not the meaning of the word, and
> the
>> >politicos that need to remind themselves and the people why they are
>> >elected to office, excuse themselves from such commitments.
>> >
>> > Mayor Cheney, Councilman Dickinson, and the other member of the
>> >council, if you feel your oath to this city is unquestionable, if you
> have
>> > unquestionable loyalty to this nation, if you do not question your
>> >pride in this nation, then their should be no question to your
>> >willingness to say the pledge twice a month that children say five
>> >times
> a
>> >week.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> >
>> > Donovan J Arnold
>> >Proud United States Citizen and Moscow Resident
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >John Dickinson <johnd at moscow.com> wrote: Visionaries-
>> >
>> >I am one of the council members that asked that we not say the pledge of
>> >allegiance to the flag at each council meeting. Before 9/11, the pledge
> was
>> >said at council meetings that were near special national celebrations,
> such
>> >as the Fourth of July. Since 9/11, the pledge has been said at each
> council
>> >meeting. My primary objection to making the pledge pro forma is that it
>> >dilutes its meaning by saying it all the time. It seems similar the
> singing
>> >the national anthem before baseball games - begun after WWI, I think it
>> >would be more meaningful to sing our national anthem on days of
> celebration
>> >or on days of national trauma.
>> >
>> >If there are some that worry about a council members commitment to city,
>> >county, state and nation - then I think we'd need to have a more
> inclusive
>> >ritual to begin each meeting, something that included the city, county,
>> >state parts.
>> >
>> >Every moment since I was elected two years ago I have felt the weight of
>> >responsibility that I have been granted by the people of this community.
> It
>> >is a joyous burden to feel. I thank you all for helping to make Moscow a
>> >place I could never leave.
>> >
>> >John Dickinson
>> >Moscow City Council
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> > > On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>> > > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:28 PM
>> > > To: nchaney at moscow.com
>> > > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>> > >
>> > > Nancy
>> > >
>> > > Just for the sake of the public's right to know, which council
>> > > members
>> > > exactly felt that the Pledge should not be offered? Not to question
>> >their
>> > > feelings or their sincerity, I just think that the public has a right
> to
>> > > know who exactly among the council feels that the pledge does not
>> >belong.
>> > > Then I would ask, did the council vote on removal of the pledge and
> how
>> >was
>> > > the agenda changed to reflect the change from former procedure?
>> > >
>> > > I guess what I am wondering here is if this is an issue for some
>> >particular
>> > > reason. Does one or more of the council members feel that they can
> not
>> > > partake in the Pledge of Allegiance due to some specific detail
>> >contained
>> >in
>> > > the pledge? Has the whole council decided to alter its conduct to
>> > > accommodate this concern of the few who have a problem?
>> > >
>> > > I mean for all I know the reason somebody does not want to take the
>> >pledge
>> > > is because they disagree with the statement "liberty and justice for
>> >all".
>> > > Knowing that the council is not loaded down with people who oppose
>> > > our
>> > > Republican form of government would be nice. So what's the beef that
>> >the
>> > > few have with the Pledge?
>> > >
>> > > Phil Nisbet
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >From: "Nancy Chaney"
>> > > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Area Man
>> > > >(Dan C)'" ,
>> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>> > > >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:12:49 -0800
>> > > >
>> > > >Donovan, just so you'll know, Dan's V2020 opener about ".humanness"
> was
>> > > >the end of my reading of a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,
>> > > >in
>> > > >acknowledgement of his birthday and in support of human rights. In
> its
>> > > >entirety, it says: "We must work unceasingly to uplift this nation
> that
>> > > >we love to a higher plateau of compassion, to a more noble
>> > > >expression
>> >of
>> > > >humanness." In my book, that also speaks to loyalty to country.
>> > > >
>> > > >I acknowledge that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a big deal
>> > > >to
>> > > >many people. I would argue that contemplating the true meanings of
>> >those
>> > > >words is a bigger deal. Whatever their personal reasons, I believe
> that
>> > > >City Council members who asked that we not include the Pledge, are
>> > > >honorable and sincerely driven to serve this community.
>> > > >
>> > > >I get shivers when the flag goes by, but I appreciate that loving
>> > > >the
>> > > >foundations and people of ones Country is distinct from being made
>> > > >to
>> > > >say particular words before each Council meeting. Please be aware
> that
>> > > >upon being sworn in, local elected officials sign an oath to
>> > > >"support
>> > > >the Constitution of the United States and the State of Idaho, and
>> > > >the
>> > > >Laws and Ordinances of the City of Moscow, and .to the best of
>> >(his/her)
>> > > >ability, faithfully perform the duties of the office." I am
>> > > >confident
>> > > >that we all took that oath very seriously and considered the meaning
> of
>> > > >every word and our ability to abide by them in good conscience.
>> > > >Thank
>> > > >you for being concerned.
>> > > >
>> > > >Nancy Chaney
>> > > >-----Original Message-----
>> > > >From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> > > >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>> > > >Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 2:10 PM
>> > > >To: Area Man (Dan C); vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>> > > >
>> > > >Dan,
>> > > >
>> > > >Thanks for bringing this up. I think any person who cannot show a
>> > > >loyalty to the United States over other nations has no business
>> > > >being
>> >in
>> > > >an elected office in the United States.
>> > > >
>> > > >I think the people in any city, county, state, or country deserve,
>> > > >at
>> > > >minimum, the knowledge that their elected leaders are on their team.
> If
>> > > >an elected leader cannot say, "Yes, I affirm my allegiance to this
>> > > >country, state, county, and city FIRST.", I think that disqualifies
>> >them
>> > > >from the position. Saying, "I am for Humans" just does not cut it
>> > > >for
>> > > >me.
>> > > >
>> > > >-DJA
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >"Area Man (Dan C)" wrote:
>> > > >Members of the Vizzz,
>> > > >
>> > > >I was perusing the agenda for the last city council meeting and
> noticed
>> > > >the Pledge of Allegiance was no longer an agenda item. I could not
>> > > >attend the meet! ing since my delicate flower was working basketball
>> > > >games
>> > > >(Go Bears!) and someone had to stay home and make sure the kids
>> >couldn't
>> > > >escape from their restraints (yes, I'm being facetious).
>> > > >
>> > > >I listened to the city's recording of the council meeting, but the
>> > > >recording starts with Mayor Chaney saying: " . . . expression of
>> > > >humanness. With that we'll call the meeting to order." Then they
>> > > >move
>> > > >into the consent agenda and public comment period.
>> > > >
>> > > >Does the council no longer begin meetings with the Pledge, or was it
>> > > >just not recorded? If the council no longer begins with the Pledge,
> why
>> > > >not?
>> > > >
>> > > >curiosity's killin' me, and I ain't no cat,
>> > > >
>> > > >DC
>> > > >
>> > > >_____________________________________________________
>> > > >List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > > >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > > >http://www.fsr.net
>> > > >mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > >¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>> > > >
>> > > > _____
>> > > >
>> > > >Yahoo! Photos
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>> > >
>> >
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >_____________________________________________________
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>> > >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_____________________________________________________
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >---------------------------------
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>>
>> >_____________________________________________________
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>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>
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