[Vision2020] Spying on Americans Can't Be Justified (ByMollyIvins)

[Art Deco]

Pat,

This issue is not about spying as such.  As you very correctly point out, spying is an absolute necessity for national security.  In fact had we'd done a competent job of it earlier there would not in all likelihood have been a 9/11 or an invasion of Iraq.

The issue is about certain kinds of spying such as wire taps, electronic communication interception, warrantless searches, etc in American territory on American citizens/residents without judicial oversight/approval.

That is what the Fourth Amendment is about.  And those of us who have victims of Fourth Amendment violations can testify how important to everyone's privacy and security that amendment is.

There is no credible reason why the NSA and Bush could not have asked permission from the surveillance court for his hidden, now rightfully controversial program.  The NSA and Bush administration regularly ask it for thousands of other cases.

It is naive in my opinion to try to right certain governmental abuses by going through channels.  If nothing else, the last few months in Moscow should demonstrate that going through channels doesn't even work locally, let alone in the deep bowels of a national security program.

Nothing any enemy read in the New York Times came as a surprise to them.  That they are under surveillance is well known to them.  They have been adept for years at working around a great deal of that surveillance and even using it for their own advantage.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Kraut 
  To: vision2020 
  Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Spying on Americans Can't Be Justified (ByMollyIvins)


  My response was not about Bush...it was about people who accept a position, collect my money regularly and then go against promises they have made to keep secrets and tell a reporter. There are channels for reporting abuse of power if someone really believes that is happening and it does not include 'leaking' info. I assure I do know what the constitution says...I teach it! And no where does it say this is right. I personally believe that Bush does have the right under special order 12333 to do this. I would have been very surprised to find out the surveillance was not happening (spying has happened in every war) and I would have joined in any impeachment proceedings if he had not ordered it! I believe the NYT has endangered all our lives by letting our enemies know about this and they should be tried for treason. 

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Tom Hansen 
    To: 'Pat Kraut' ; 'vision2020' 
    Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:21 PM
    Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Spying on Americans Can't Be Justified (By MollyIvins)


    Hint for Ms. Kraut:

     

    Don't wait for the movie.  Read the book.  It is entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America".

     

    There is a short preview:

     

    Amendment IV

     

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

     

    You will notice, Ms. Kraut, that ABOSOLUTELY NOWHERE in the 4th Amendment do you read the words "Unless George Bush says differently".

     

    "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." 

    --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
    Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:04 PM
    To: vision2020
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Spying on Americans Can't Be Justified (By MollyIvins)

     

      Bush cannot trust the people who are supposed to be keeping his warrants secret. Someone at NSA is a very dishonest person and has no sense of morals. So, he in order to keep us safe must do it without them or do you not remember 9/11. It makes a serious difference to our safety. Molly Ivins has made her name slamming Bush and I would expect the world to stop spinning if she had anything good to say about him. She is unbelievable. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _____________________________________________________
   List services made available by First Step Internet, 
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                 http://www.fsr.net                       
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060106/3026fbd0/attachment.htm