[Vision2020] Inconvenient Truth -- What WE REALLY HAVE TO DO
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 24 18:41:20 PDT 2006
Donovan,
Your position makes sense to me, although I'd like them to get some of
the alternate fuels in place and accessible before adding the tax.
There shouldn't be a time when the red apples cost 1$ and there are no
green apples. I see this happening slowly, but in a few years it should
be doable.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I do agree that the major problem with tax
> increases on the gas is how it impacts poorer families. The taxes
> collected should be used primarily to address that problem. A $3 a
> gallon tax would solve many problems. The idea though is not to have
> families paying $7.50 a gallon. The idea is to get them to buy another
> car in the next five years that runs on something else besides the
> $7.50 a gallon gasoline. To instead, buy a car that uses an
> alternative fuel that is in their price range ($4 a gallon in five
> years, or today's price). If gasoline is $7.50 or higher, there are
> numerous other cheaper alternatives they would move to, instead of
> sticking with the most expensive means of transportation.
>
> My guess is that most people are going to buy another car in the next
> 5 years anyway. If energy suppliers know that people won't buy gas,
> and if buyers now know it would cheaper to invest in a vehicles that
> does not run on gasoline, they will not buy gasoline cars--ending our
> fossil fuel dependence for transportation.
>
> Consider it like apples. You have green apples and red apples. Right
> now, there are only red apples. If you introduce green apples and
> charge 45 cents for the apple, and raise the price of the red apples
> from 45 cents to $1, people are going to buy the green apples instead,
> not the red ones. To say that hurts the poor, is only accurate if the
> poor decide to continue to keep buying the red apples instead of
> switching to green ones like everybody. I hope that makes more since
> to you. The cost increase would not be the gasoline tax, the cost
> would be in the conversion of buying a gas powered car to an
> alternatively powered vehicle.
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
> */Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> Donovan,
>
> I agree with you about the gas-tax idea. It seems to have helped
> in Europe (from what I understand). It may work the same way
> here, too. We have a different culture than in Europe, though, so
> I'm not sure if it will work as well or not but it's worth a
> shot. Unfortunately, though, it's the person living on a limited
> income that feels it the most.
>
> The best way, according to the numbers, to maintain the human
> population at a given amount (short of shooting people for
> jaywalking) is for more of the human population to become
> first-world instead of third-world citizens. The US numbers are
> skewed because of the baby boomers, but I believe I read somewhere
> that the birth-rate now is actually negative (more people are
> dying than are being born each year). I know that Japan is having
> problems because of their negative birth-rate. I don't know how
> Europe's doing.
>
> As for thinking BIG, I agree. Just remember that lots of little
> numbers can add up to a big number, too.
>
> Paul
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>> I don't think eating lettuce and carrot sticks is going to save
>> the environment, no matter how many you eat and everyone else.
>> The only way to do it is to raise the price of gasoline and
>> reduce the human population. If the world raises the price of
>> gasoline to $7.50 a gallon over the next 5 years it would force
>> everyone economically to switch to an alternative form of fuel
>> that would be better on the Earth, maybe even reverse the effects.
>>
>> The second, is to maintain the human population. The Earth cannot
>> sustain 12 billion people for very long, it just cannot--even if
>> they just eat tofu, cabbage and sprouts. The current birth rate
>> of the world it will shortly be 12 billion. There is only three
>> ways to stop overpopulation; mass murder, mass sterilization and
>> abortion, or economic enforcement. I prefer economic enforcement.
>> Making it so expensive to raise a child so that only 1.8 children
>> per fertile woman are born, or zero population growth, is the way
>> to go. Many Western countries are going this route already.
>> China uses law enforcement and forced abortion to control their
>> population--I don't want to go that route.
>>
>> You guys are thinking so small, so tiny. It doesn't help save the
>> earth even a day to do these tiny things. If the Earth's
>> environment is going to be saved, it has to be on a HUGE scale,
>> all over the world, and people will have to be forced to do it by
>> economic necessity. Trying to do it politically, socially,
>> educating, or choosing one by one to change and start caring for
>> the world--it ain't gonna happen that way folks. Think BIG for a
>> BIG Problem.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> _DJA
>>
>> */Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu>/* wrote:
>>
>> I'm not too surprised that there was not an outpouring of
>> personal actions
>> to my previous question -- I'm about immobilized by the
>> challenge as well.
>>
>> Carbon neutral is an interesting concept, but knowing if
>> something is carbon
>> neutral is hard, and, given that most things include a
>> transportation
>> element, its going to be hard to be neutral.
>>
>> Megan's veggie idea, as subsequently modified by other
>> suggestions is one
>> that resonates for me -- eat lower on the carbon input chain,
>> which means
>> eat local. That's something I can work on.
>>
>> SO now, I want to move the discussion out a level, what are
>> WE, as Moscow,
>> gonna do?
>>
>> I got a piece of good news last night, PCEI has converted a
>> vehicle to
>> bio-diesel and they are talking about how to work with other
>> fleets in town
>> to convert them, and have a local bio-diesel supply. I know a
>> couple other
>> bio-diesel drivers around already and having a supply closer
>> than Lewiston
>> would be welcome news to them.
>>
>> The COOP gives a discount for getting there by foot. One of
>> the businesses
>> in Alturas Park (Anatech maybe?) gives employees a financial
>> incentive per
>> mile that they travel to work by foot power. WSU & UI run a
>> bus between the
>> campuses and its free to students and employees (but UI
>> almost cut the
>> service this summer -- sad statement on their green commitment)
>>
>> What else can we, in whatever collective groups, begin doing?
>>
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