[WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

Tue Jan 22 13:48:08 PST 2019

Thanks, Annie.  I am willing to contribute the $25 extra for the ‘emeritus’ listserv members who are retired but willing to contribute their wisdom and experience.  I bet dollars to donuts (anachronistic phrase displaying greyhair and longtooth) there are many active members who would likewise contribute.  Better yet, I think retired Bar members should have free access to whatever list servs they sign up for.
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From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Annie Fitzsimmons
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 9:23 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

Recall that RPPT is a WSBA section.  We only exist, by and through WSBA.  WSBA incurs costs to maintain all of the sections such as administrative support, provision of facilities for meetings and CLEs and technological support.  From every section member's dues, regardless of the section, WSBA charges the section $18.75.  Sections are free to increase the cost of membership but RPPT has chosen not to increase our section membership fee for many years.  Because of the support of our members and the quality CLEs we provide, our section generates revenue that other sections are unable to create and thus, we are not dependent on dues alone to provide programming.

The listserv is just one of many section benefits provided to our members.  We provide our quarterly newsletter, four 1-day CLEs annually as well as the three day midyear CLE and conference, mentoring opportunities, legislative review and testimony, the RPPT website that houses archived newsletters and other benefits as well.  Until now, joining the listserv has truly been free to anybody who wanted to join.  Other member benefits, however, were available only through section membership.  For example, access to our Newsletter has been provided only as a member benefit.

With this change in section policy, we are not "charging for access to the listserv."  Instead, we are preserving access to the listserv as one of the benefits of section membership.  It is easy to see how the change is perceived as a charge for accessing the listserv if accessing the listserv is the only section benefit you consume. But if you enjoy the other benefits of section membership, then $25 is the cost of that membership, and not solely the cost of joining the listserv.  Likewise, the $18.75 paid to WSBA, from each section member's dues, is not paid solely to fund the listserv but rather, to fund all of the operations WSBA provides to all of the sections.

I hope this explanation helps.  Again, if you want to discuss any of this further, I invite you to respond to the listserv or contact me off the list at: atfitz at comcast.net<mailto:atfitz at comcast.net>.

Thanks - Annie

Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
P.O. Box 65578
Tacoma, WA 98464
253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)
On January 18, 2019 at 8:02 AM "Wheeler, Doug" <DWheeler at viresorts.com> wrote:

Why is $18.75 paid to WSBA?  How can it possibly cost that much to maintain a listserv?  I am also a member of the CondoLawyers listserv, which is free.  I always assumed the WSBA Real Property listserv also was free, even it sponsored by WSBA.

Doug Wheeler

Senior Counsel

VI Resorts

1417 116th Avenue NE

Bellevue, WA  98004

Office:  (425) 454-3065, Ext. 1309

Fax:  (425) 990-2655

DWheeler at viresorts.com<mailto:DWheeler at viresorts.com>

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Annie Fitzsimmons
Sent: January 17, 2019 5:44 PM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

Good evening WSBA RP listserv!  Thank you for all the constructive discussion today around listserv access.  I am sorry to be late to the party but one of the services bestowed by our section is input to the Legislature, as subject matter experts, on real estate bills.  If today is any example, this is going to be a busy session!

I am the current Chair of the Real Property, Probate and Trust section. Thanks to others, the input I can add at this point, in this discussion, is minimal.  Michael and Chris did a good job of explaining the executive committee discussions that led to this decision.  As background these discussions began last spring and then consumed significant aspects of two EC meetings this past fall.  We tried to be as intentional and thoughtful in our conclusions as possible.  If we missed the mark, we will return to the discussion.  Our next EC meeting is February 8 and we will consider any suggestions to create a better approach.

I am sure you already know this, but let me be clear.  Our effort was not intended, in any way, to limit participation by any lawyers, young or old.  RPPT exists by membership participation for the purpose of serving members and the Washington legal community.  Our listserv is a rich tool because of the diverse array of contributors.  That said, many on the Executive Committee were surprised to learn that access to the WSBA RP listserv is not limited to lawyers and law students.  Anybody can join the listserv.  Is that bad?  No, of course not.  But, we felt it was critical for members of the listserv to be made aware of the fact that non-lawyers may not only be on the listserv but may be asking for the legal advice and strategy that listserv members are so generous to share.  In an era where giving "cocktail party counsel" can create liability, listserv members should know that the advice and strategy they are sharing may be consumed by non-lawyers, pro se litigants and others.  Because of that, we chose to inform listserv members of the fact that listserv membership is not dependent upon WSBA membership with the notifications Michael has described.

Additionally, we decided that while $25 is not a huge sum, joining the section and paying the section dues requires, at least, nominal commitment and may prevent casual consumption of legal counsel by non lawyers who drop in when needing assistance in their own case. Even so, it is important to remember to treat discussion on this listserv as public commentary.

With respect to the $25 fee, please know that this is not a money maker for the section.  From the $25, $18.75 goes to WSBA.  If we reduce the fee to $10 for some members, the section will literally pay $8.75 to WSBA for that member to join.  Maybe we want to create an emeritus status for retired lawyers and supplement their membership.  That is something we can discuss at the EC.  Please know, however, that there are more tentacles to this decision than simply deciding.

If you have ideas, other than those already discussed today, that you would like us to consider, please feel free to respond to the listserv or email me privately, if you prefer: atfitz at comcast.net<mailto:atfitz at comcast.net>.

Thank you!  Annie

Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
P.O. Box 65578
Tacoma, WA 98464
253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)

On January 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM Eric Nelsen <Eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:Eric at sayrelawoffices.com>> wrote:

Michael --

Thank you for all the work you put into keeping this Section going.

This probably already has been a conversation among the Section governance folks, so I bet I'm late to the game here and I can only speak for myself of course, but:

I would happily pay higher annual section dues ($30 annually instead of $25?) if I knew that the additional amount made it possible to (1) allow inactive and retired attorneys, and title officers, to participate in the listservs for free; and/or (2) add some security to our listserv to make it a somewhat more private forum--messages and archives not accessible via Google search, for example.

Two bucks a month is already a ridiculous bargain for all the benefit I receive from this forum, so $2.50 or $3 a month isn't going to drive me out.

I think it makes sense for the Section to be free to people who are retired and don't need questions answered or any benefit from other Section services like CLEs, and are only sticking around because they want to provide help and advice to colleagues who need it.

I also think it helps our listserv conversation to know that one's questions and answers are somewhat "private" among colleagues and professionals, at least to the point of being protected from cursory snooping. I certainly don't expect a major security effort and true privacy online just isn't realistic, but I hope there might be some configuration that is within reach of the Section budget and workload that would help.

$0.02.

Sincerely,

Eric

Eric C. Nelsen

SAYRE LAW OFFICES, PLLC

1417 31st Ave South

Seattle WA  98144-3909

phone 206-625-0092

fax 206-625-9040

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Michael Safren
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:11 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv
Cc: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

Hello Fellow Listserv Participants:

I wanted to address some concerns that some of the listserv subscribers and participants had about some of the changes.  Specifically, some participants who are not members of the bar expressed concerns that the upcoming changes would force them to take on the economic obligation to join the bar.

I want to assure you that this is not the case.  A person can enjoy section membership in the WSBA RPPT section without necessarily being a member of the WSBA.  I've posted the by-law below to assure those who have these concerns that section membership is open to non-WSBA members.  Please note that non-WSBA members would not be able to vote in section elections, but would otherwise enjoy the other member benefits including: access to the Quarterly Newsletter, access to electronic resources such as deskbook sections, and access to the listservs.  Please see the by-laws below:

2 Subscribers. Any law student or other person may be enrolled as a non-voting member (“subscriber”) upon request and payment of applicable annual Section dues. Subscribers shall be entitled to receive the Newsletter of the Section and shall have access to materials and pages designated as "Members Pages" on the Section's web site, but subscribers have no right to vote.

2.3 Dues. Dues shall be paid annually in advance. Any person who shall fail to pay the annual dues shall cease to be a member or subscriber of the Section, as applicable. Dues, which shall be determined by the executive committee of the Section, and approved by the Bar Board of Governors, may differ for voting members and subscribers. The dues for law students shall be set according to the annual standard established by the Board of Governors for law student section memberships.

I hope this assuages the concerns of the non-member participants to the listserv.  Please know that everyone's participation in the listserv is valued.  The Executive Committee decided to implement these changes to the listserv in part due to the resources necessary to maintain and operate the listservs and to improve the overall experience for both the listservs and for section members.

Kind regards,

Michael Safren

Web Editor, RPPT section

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 10:05 AM RebeccaWiess <rwiess at foxinternet.net<mailto:rwiess at foxinternet.net>> wrote:

The new policy means I and other retired attorneys will no longer be part of this listserv. I occasionally post on historical evolution of real property procedure or law, as a contribution to the education of those who come after me, and payback for those who helped me as a newbie thirty-some years ago. If institutional memory is valuable, then this listserv needs an emeritus status to include folks like me. If us old folks are not of value, then cut us out. And before you say “just join the section,” remember that retaining bar membership after retiring means continuing to pay bar dues and CLE costs. Once you do that, you get tempted to do some little piece of practice, and then you should be insured as well, and that means needing more income, and suddenly you are not retired anymore. Allowing non-practicing members of the bar to join still means you are going to eliminate some of your oldest and most experienced current members, because they retired..

Rebecca K. Wiess

421 24th Avenue East

Seattle, WA  98112

Phone 206 329-6638

rwiess at foxinternet.net<mailto:rwiess at foxinternet.net>

________________________________

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> [mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>] On Behalf Of Michael Safren
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:18 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv; WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
Subject: [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

Hello Fellow Listservers:

I wanted to provide another reminder to all listserv users of the scheduled updates and upcoming changes to both the Real Property and Probate & Trust Listservs.

Starting February 1st, 2019, both listservs will only be accessible by WSBA RPPT members. The RPPT Executive Committee decided after much deliberation and input that the listservs should be an exclusive member benefit.  Starting February 1st, 2019, you will need to login into the www.wsbarppt.com<http://www.wsbarppt.com/> website using your section login and password in order to register for the listserv, access the listserv archives, and/or unsubscribe to the listserv.

Further, the Executive Committee has approved the adoption of new guidelines, rules, and general etiquette for the listserv.  These will be posted on www.wsbarppt,com<http://www.wsbarppt,com> under the listserv tab for all members to see and review.

Lastly, beginning on February 1st, 2019, all listserv postings will contain a disclaimer in the footer reminding all that while the listservs will be restricted to RPPT section members, not all section members are practicing attorneys.  Section membership is open to law students, non-practicing members of the bar, and even some non-attorney professionals in related fields such as title officers, real estate agents, and escrow agents.

The Executive Committee believes that these changes will improve the listserv experience for section members and deliver value to members as one of many available section member benefits.

I hope to make the transition to the members only listserv as seamless as possible  If you experience any difficulty during the transition, please feel free to email me and I will do my best to respond and assist you.

Kind regards,

Michael Safren

Web Editor, RPPT Section

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