[Vision2020] If you can't keep them from stopping.....

Sun Oct 13 11:38:59 PDT 2013

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, Paul.  Honestly, it
doesn't take any kind of heavy mental physics to understand not only the
liability issue (Ron posted some good info on that in case you missed it),
but also the necessity of protecting national resources for all of us from
the dolts who think that their "wants" (the "I want to pull out, so I'll
just move those barricades, and since the park is closed and I want to see
it anyway, I'll just climb down the embankment regardless of the ecosystem
I'm destroying  . . . and since there's no one here to stop me, I'll just do
some poaching while I'm at it, and this would be a great place to set up a
portable meth lab to make me some money so I can continue to do whatever the
heck I want" crowd) trump all.

But, I guess it better fits your narrative to go with a "political theater"
meme rather than a common sense solution to stop those who demonstrated they
have absolutely NO respect.

As for third parties, Scott already pointed out one of the problems:  no
everyone who is interested in third parties agree - even remotely -about
what those third parties would look like.

But, of course, the bigger issue, it seems to me, is that we don't have
proportional representation in this country (look up Duverger's Law for some
solid info rather than fantasy) . . . we don't have it on a state level and
we don't have it on a national level, so unless/until you come up with some
coherent plan to completely overhaul our electoral process, it's just a
silly idea that makes some people like you feel better.

Look:  if we can't get a constitutional amendment for something as basic as
equal rights (remember the ERA?), do you really think there will be the
support required to modify the Constitution for this . . . particularly
since corporations are now people, too?

And, here's a clue:  if you think that things like reforming "entitlements,"
health care reform, and reforming the tax code are challenging, those things
absolutely pale in comparison to fundamentally changing our electoral
process so that third party candidates are viable in anything other in very
isolated instances where they haven't been very effective, anyway, it seems
to me.

You won't find me disagreeing that things aren't working well now, although
it's pretty clear to me that we would likely disagree on the causes of the
dysfunction.

And, if you want to believe that a third party system would be some miracle
fix - by all means, have at it and invest all the energy you want in coming
up with a practical and coherent strategy for making that happen.  I've
followed those discussions for years & years, and poking holes in strategies
put forth up to now is like taking candy from a baby.  Perhaps you've got
some new strategy that will prove everyone else who has tried to inept . . .
and the doubters like me wrong.  Knock yourself out!  

Until then, quit treating those of us who see the sheer folly of your notion
as though we're just too stupid to understand, or as if we're just good
little party bots too happy to throw away our votes, or as if we're refusing
to see some simple common-sense fix because we don't buy into your thinking.
That's just not the case.

Saundra

Moscow, ID

Well-behaved women seldom make history.

~ Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 10:55 AM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Kai Eiselein'; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] If you can't keep them from stopping.....

Going out of your way to put police tape around a monument in order to keep
people out, or to barricade the entrance to an otherwise unmanned turnout is
simply political theater.  You don't seem to mind so much, but I find it
insulting.  It's just a power play.  They were afraid people might not be
inconvenienced enough by the shutdown to call their Congressman, so they
upped the ante a bit.

It's also a good litmus test for where people think government fits into
things.  Is it a massive monolithic structure that we should be grateful
exists, or is it a necessary evil that we should keep tightly under control?

Oh, and one good reason for encouraging third party candidates, despite your
assertion that they will all automatically be corrupted by the system, is
that with more political parties holding more seats in Congress there will
have to be more negotiation since no one party will have enough seats to
override every other party.  The Democrats will have to reach out to the
Libertarians on social issues, while the Libertarians and the Greens can
hope to advance a pro-civil liberties agenda together, for example.  Things
that can't happen now very easily.

Paul

On Friday, October 11, 2013 12:37 AM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
wrote:

So, tell us, Kai:  what other rules & regulations do you think we should be
free to pick & choose to follow?

Personally, having seen the havoc wreaked by far too many dolts in national,
state, and local parks by people with absolutely no respect who think that
their wants trump everything, I'm glad the national parks are closed since
they can't be staffed due to the shutdown.  It takes no time for those
idiots you support to cause decades of damage, but I guess you want to
ignore that, don't you?

As for other idiotic closures, there are certainly many, which is exactly
what the GOP wanted to happen, or have you missed all those positively
orgasmic interviews?  I addressed this one because *you* brought it up while
failing to recognize the role of the idiots who thought they were above
everyone else.

I think it's a sign of what's wrong with America that people like you are
all up in arms about national park closures while remaining stunningly mute
about the closures that are causing *real* harm rather than silly
inconveniences to people.

What party am I a good little soldier for?  It's always disappointing that
people like you try to simplistically categorize people no matter how
incorrect you are so you can dismiss them.  Why are you so bitter?  Oh, I
get it:  you're POed because some of us are unwilling to throw away our
votes to support hopeless third party candidates you think will "save" us as
though they aren't just as subject to the same corruption as the two-party
system.  A great example of my point is what's happened to the so-called Tea
Party.  For the sake of convenience, we'll just ignore that it was an
astroturffed "movement" to begin with  :-)  Funny how the Libertarians who
were initially attracted have all been shouted down by the Right Wing Moral
Jackbooted Thugs, eh?  But, some other third party will magically be
different, eh?  Keep up with your magical thinking while I stay in reality
:-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Kai Eiselein [mailto:fotopro63 at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:04 AM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] If you can't keep them from stopping.....

Nice try, Sandra, but access to the pullouts should have never been taken
away. The directive to close them is purely a spiteful, vindictive decision
straight out of D.C.
Reckless behaivor? Since when is pulling over to look at a view reckless?
You think there are ranger stationed at each and every one of them when the
park is open? 
It's funny you've nothing to say about any of the other idiotic closures.
I see you are still being good little soldier for your party, don't
question, just follow.

----------------------------------------
> From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
> To: fotopro63 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] If you can't keep them from stopping.....
> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:01:15 -0700
>
> "A state highway that runs through the national park was closed after 
> Grand Canyon officials found tourists removing barricades at overlooks 
> along the road."
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/nearly-two-dozen-cited-
> for-en
> tering-grand-canyon-after-budget-battle-forced-parks-closure/2013/10/0
> 9/94a7 2f2e-30dd-11e3-ad00-ec4c6b31cbed_story.html
>
> Yes -- I'm glad you agree that those "tourists" are responsible for 
> the necessary decision to close the highway since they thought they 
> were special enough that they could just move the barricades. You & I 
> both know that if something went wrong with their illegal behavior, 
> they'd be the first to sue, something they made clear to us with their
reckless behavior.
>
> Yeah, it sucks when a few spoil things for the many, so I'm glad to 
> see your ire directed where it belongs : at the "tourists."
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Kai Eiselein
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 2:28 PM
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] If you can't keep them from stopping.....
>
> Then shut down the highway.
>
>
> http://www.outsideonline.com/news-from-the-field/Citations-Issued-at-G
> rand-C 
> anyon.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebook
> post
>
>                         

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