[Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????

Wed Jan 30 22:13:08 PST 2013

But couldn’t any one of us do that?  There is much that Tom posts that I appreciate and wouldn’t have it if he didn’t post it.  There probably isn’t anyone on the Viz that Tom agrees with all the time, but it’s not a problem for me when he disagrees with me.  I admit he is acerbic at times, but aren’t we all?  One thing I’ll say for Tom, he never urges a purge of this forum.  He’s willing for anyone to say anything at any time, and he’s usually on top of what’s going on and jumps right in.  Good for him. 

Sue H.

From: Scott Dredge 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:01 PM
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com ; godshatter at yahoo.com 
Cc: viz 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????

The glaring anomaly I see with the viz is that Tom uses it as his personal blog, overposts, and attacks a lot folks who have different opinions that he has.

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From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:31:25 -0800
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????

No that's not what I'm saying.

And don't confuse an attempt at actual dialogue with this sort of thing, sweeping ALL criticisms of Wayne's speech under the same irrelevant rug. As you point out and illustrate very often, who cares if you're offended. 

Now if a threat was made that would be different. But so far no particular example has been given, nor is there one that I know of.

On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

  So you're saying that we need to be careful when calling someone out for dialogue that "belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans, or attacks", lest we hurt some totally unrelated person's feelings?  What about the guy that is being complained about?  Does he get a free ride because he's "from the left"?

  Paul

  P.S.  Yes, I know, I haven't always been the politest son of a bitch on the list.

  On 01/29/2013 10:37 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:

    Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make above: no one is perfect. And we don't need to look at insults from the distant past. We can just refer to the letter below, where you wrote:

    "It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a debate, on the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah County. That is one of the prime objectives of Vision2020.  It is quite another thing when the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans and/or attacks those who express themselves.  Such actions do little to advance the role and mission of Vision2020."

    This strikes me as offensive and I think that other people from the left who participate in V2020 would find it offensive also. Here is another clue: I know several people (some who write on V2020) who were offended by Wayne's initial speech, the one that started this discussion. I know you don't care but that strikes me as a big part of the problem.

    But the offense that we're talking about here is the offense that comes with free speech. Free speech (legally) allows that you not only say what you will but that you say it how you wish. Of course there are limits: you can't make threats, for instance (I'm assuming that charge was just an ironic slip on your part). But I can insult you just as you have insulted me so long as what we mean by "insult" is confined to personal feelings; so long as it is not quantifiable in some legal or moral way (slander, libel -- such as falsely claiming on V2020 that some particular person had publicly threatened a city official). 

    I've been away, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts. But I have read some posts by Rose and Debi, in particular, that weren't "friendly" but contained some very substantive points that are well worth discussing. Points that you completely wash over in your over-general critique of this dialogue and the contributions from Wayne's critics.

    I like Wayne and I have no desire to drag out the details, which is why I will avoid commenting on the issue itself. Nor does it matter because if one wants to know what Rose and Debi and others have said, one should just read the posts for oneself; don't depend on Jeffs-notes versions of what they said. 

    It ain't always pretty, but discussions about substantive issues -- especially when there is dramatic disagreement in key places -- are sometimes like that. What matters is the content and, as you say, that should be the focus. That is one purpose of V2020: It allows for the discussion of issues that are difficult to discuss. 

    Joe

    On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

      You've got to be kidding, Jeff. Should I track down down some of the insulting comments you've made? Joe

      On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:

        -------- Original Message -------- Subject:  Re: [Vision2020] THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ?????? 
              Date:  Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:46:01 -0800 
              From:  Jeff Harkins mailto:jeffh at moscow.com 
              Reply-To:  jeffh at moscow.com 
              To:  Tom Hansen mailto:thansen at moscow.com 

        I could not disagree with you more - individuals are entitled to respect.  Certainly one is entitled to criticize a public officials positions on issues - it is inappropriate to launch personal attacks.

        On 1/25/2013 10:42 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:

          Mr. Harkins . . .

          The city council's public lives (such as when they are in session) are public domain.  As such, they should expect, or at least anticipate, some degree of ridicule (as long as it is clean) from those who strongly disagree with them.

          Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

          "Moscow Cares"
          http://www.MoscowCares.com

          Tom Hansen
          Moscow, Idaho

          "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
          But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
          If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

          - John Lennon

          On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:

            Over the past several years, the vitriolic nature of the dialogue posted to Vision2020 has become increasingly hostile and in many instances, highly personal.

            It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a debate, on the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah County. That is one of the prime objectives of Vision2020.  It is quite another thing when the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans and/or attacks those who express themselves.  Such actions do little to advance the role and mission of Vision2020.

            Perhaps a review of the Vision2020 Mission Statement will help to remind or raise awareness of the intended purpose of this website - the mission statement is appended below.  

            I am reasonably confident that the intent of First Step Internet in providing "free" hosting for the site was not to endorse or condone personal attacks - chiding, slurring, harassment and threats.  I know that as a customer of FSI, I am not interested in helping to fund a site that allows unfettered personal attacks on individuals.  The recent "satire" posting demeaning the words of Councilman Wayne Krauss is a prime example of poor and unwarranted behavior.  I know that Councilman Krauss would engage in a spirited conversation on most topics. So, if one has an issue with the Councilman, engage him in a conversation. To mock his view is a discredit to our community - it should stop.

            I can only wonder what visitors from other communities think about the despicable nature of some of the posts.  Is that the sort of impression we want to promote to visitors?

            Now, it is true that not everyone posting to the site is guilty of poor behavior - but those who frequent the site know that there are numerous individuals who do their best to mock, harass and denigrate individuals.  

            Many will argue that the site should be self policing; the "adult participants" should work to discourage poor behavior.  But that doesn't seem to be very effective.  

            To be candid, if the Vision 2020 posters can't find topics more worthy than mocking an elected official's comments about "moral decline" it is time to shut the blog site down.  There is little to be gained by allowing individuals to denigrate our community and its residents by lending credibility to the small-minded mean and nasty comments of the few.  

            Perhaps the VIZ has served its purpose and its usefulness. Or, perhaps there should be some "rules" or "protocols" for the Vision2020 site.  Perhaps the site should be restructured - charge small fee, get a new site, establish rules and protocols.  

            Perhaps those that wish to continue poor behavior and actions that would denigrate selected individuals should acquire their own blog site and post whatever they wish.

            If the VIZ is to continue, its patrons should consider a refocus on the stated goals and objectives of the VIZ.

            Finally,  according to the Vision2020 website:

                        Vision 2020 has no bylaws, budget or membership requirements. Its activities are coordinated by a three-member steering committee chosen annually by consensus. 

            By the way, who are the individuals currently serving on the Steering Committee and when is the election for the positions held?

            Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995
              1.. To ensure that all parts of our community have an opportunity to take part in visualizing and planning for the community's future. 

              2.. To strengthen citizens' sense of community by promoting awareness, ownership and investment in Moscow's future. 

              3.. To foster cooperation among (and public involvement with) the agencies and organizations that plan for and make decisions about the future of Moscow and Latah County. 

              4.. To raise awareness on the part of citizens and public officials that: 

                1.. uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have negative effects. 

                2.. short-term decisions have long-term consequences. 

              5.. To inform ourselves about growth and development issues. 

              6.. To have fun thinking critically and creatively. 

            =======================================================
            List services made available by First Step Internet,
            serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                          http://www.fsr.net
                     mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
            =======================================================

        =======================================================
        List services made available by First Step Internet,
        serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                      http://www.fsr.net
                 mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
        =======================================================

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================

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=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
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