<HTML><HEAD>
<STYLE><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr class=hmmessage>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>But couldn’t any one of us do that? There is much that Tom posts that
I appreciate and wouldn’t have it if he didn’t post it. There probably
isn’t anyone on the Viz that Tom agrees with all the time, but it’s not a
problem for me when he disagrees with me. I admit he is acerbic at times,
but aren’t we all? One thing I’ll say for Tom, he never urges a purge of
this forum. He’s willing for anyone to say anything at any time, and he’s
usually on top of what’s going on and jumps right in. Good for him. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sue H.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=scooterd408@hotmail.com
href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">Scott Dredge</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A> ; <A
title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">viz</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset
??????</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV dir=ltr>The glaring anomaly I see with the viz is that Tom uses it as his
personal blog, overposts, and attacks a lot folks who have different opinions
that he has.<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV id=SkyDrivePlaceholder></DIV>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
From: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<BR>Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:31:25 -0800<BR>To:
godshatter@yahoo.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????<BR><BR>
<DIV>No that's not what I'm saying.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't confuse an attempt at actual dialogue with this sort of thing,
sweeping ALL criticisms of Wayne's speech under the same irrelevant rug. As you
point out and illustrate very often, who cares if you're offended. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now if a threat was made that would be different. But so far no particular
example has been given, nor is there one that I know of.<BR><BR>On Jan 29, 2013,
at 11:52 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV class=ecxmoz-cite-prefix><BR>So you're saying that we need to be careful
when calling someone out for dialogue that "belittles, harasses, threatens,
demeans, or attacks", lest we hurt some totally unrelated person's
feelings? What about the guy that is being complained about? Does
he get a free ride because he's "from the left"?<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>P.S.
Yes, I know, I haven't always been the politest son of a bitch on the
list.<BR><BR>On 01/29/2013 10:37 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CA+fbP8xMMtqrYPC5gitK-dpaV_ThJT4aA+wOpmnae8evS+xeCQ@mail.gmail.com>Let
me rephrase the point I was trying to make above: no one is perfect. And we
don't need to look at insults from the distant past. We can just refer to
the letter below, where you wrote:<BR><BR>"It is one thing to have a robust
conversation, even a debate, on the pressing issues confronting Moscow and
Latah County. That is one of the prime objectives of Vision2020. It is
quite another thing when the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens,
demeans and/or attacks those who express themselves. Such actions do
little to advance the role and mission of Vision2020."<BR><BR>This strikes
me as offensive and I think that other people from the left who participate
in V2020 would find it offensive also. Here is another clue: I know several
people (some who write on V2020) who were offended by Wayne's initial
speech, the one that started this discussion. I know you don't care but that
strikes me as a big part of the problem.<BR><BR>But the offense that we're
talking about here is the offense that comes with free speech. Free speech
(legally) allows that you not only say what you will but that you say it how
you wish. Of course there are limits: you can't make threats, for instance
(I'm assuming that charge was just an ironic slip on your part). But I can
insult you just as you have insulted me so long as what we mean by "insult"
is confined to personal feelings; so long as it is not quantifiable in some
legal or moral way (slander, libel -- such as falsely claiming on V2020 that
some particular person had publicly threatened a city official).
<BR><BR>I've been away, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts. But
I have read some posts by Rose and Debi, in particular, that weren't
"friendly" but contained some very substantive points that are well worth
discussing. Points that you completely wash over in your over-general
critique of this dialogue and the contributions from Wayne's
critics.<BR><BR>I like Wayne and I have no desire to drag out the details,
which is why I will avoid commenting on the issue itself. Nor does it matter
because if one wants to know what Rose and Debi and others have said, one
should just read the posts for oneself; don't depend on Jeffs-notes versions
of what they said. <BR><BR>It ain't always pretty, but discussions about
substantive issues -- especially when there is dramatic disagreement in key
places -- are sometimes like that. What matters is the content and, as you
say, that should be the focus. That is one purpose of V2020: It allows for
the discussion of issues that are difficult to discuss. <BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR>
<DIV class=ecxgmail_quote>On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Joe Campbell
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=ecxgmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>You've got to be kidding, Jeff. Should I track down down some of the
insulting comments you've made? Joe<BR><BR>On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM,
Jeff Harkins <<A
href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com">jeffh@moscow.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>-------- Original Message --------
<TABLE style="COLOR: #000000" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline align=right>Subject: </TH>
<TD>Re: [Vision2020] THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline align=right>Date: </TH>
<TD>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:46:01 -0800</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline align=right>From: </TH>
<TD>Jeff Harkins <A
href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com">mailto:jeffh@moscow.com</A></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline align=right>Reply-To: </TH>
<TD><A href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com">jeffh@moscow.com</A></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline align=right>To: </TH>
<TD>Tom Hansen <A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">mailto:thansen@moscow.com</A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR>
<DIV>I could not disagree with you more - individuals are entitled to
respect. Certainly one is entitled to criticize a public officials
positions on issues - it is inappropriate to launch personal
attacks.<BR><BR>On 1/25/2013 10:42 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Mr. Harkins . . .</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>The city council's public lives (such as when they are in
session) are public domain. As such, they should expect, or at
least anticipate, some degree of ridicule (as long as it is clean)
from those who strongly disagree with them.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Moscow Cares"</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.MoscowCares.com"
target=_blank>http://www.MoscowCares.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">There's room at the top they are
telling you still</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium"> </SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">But first you must learn how to smile as you
kill </SPAN><BR style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN>- John Lennon<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Jeff Harkins <<A
href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com">jeffh@moscow.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Over the past several years, the vitriolic nature of the
dialogue posted to Vision2020 has become increasingly hostile and in
many instances, highly personal.<BR><BR>It is one thing to have a
robust conversation, even a debate, on the pressing issues
confronting Moscow and Latah County. That is one of the prime
objectives of Vision2020. It is quite another thing when the
dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans and/or attacks
those who express themselves. Such actions do little to
advance the role and mission of Vision2020.<BR><BR>Perhaps a review
of the Vision2020 Mission Statement will help to remind or raise
awareness of the intended purpose of this website - the mission
statement is appended below. <BR><BR>I am reasonably confident
that the intent of First Step Internet in providing "free" hosting
for the site was not to endorse or condone personal attacks -
chiding, slurring, harassment and threats. I know that as a
customer of FSI, I am not interested in helping to fund a site that
allows unfettered personal attacks on individuals. The recent
"satire" posting demeaning the words of Councilman Wayne Krauss is a
prime example of poor and unwarranted behavior. I know that
Councilman Krauss would engage in a spirited conversation on most
topics. So, if one has an issue with the Councilman, engage him in a
conversation. To mock his view is a discredit to our community - it
should stop.<BR><BR>I can only wonder what visitors from other
communities think about the despicable nature of some of the
posts. Is that the sort of impression we want to promote to
visitors?<BR><BR>Now, it is true that not everyone posting to the
site is guilty of poor behavior - but those who frequent the site
know that there are numerous individuals who do their best to mock,
harass and denigrate individuals. <BR><BR>Many will argue that
the site should be self policing; the "adult participants" should
work to discourage poor behavior. But that doesn't seem to be
very effective. <BR><BR>To be candid, if the Vision 2020
posters can't find topics more worthy than mocking an elected
official's comments about "moral decline" it is time to shut the
blog site down. There is little to be gained by allowing
individuals to denigrate our community and its residents by lending
credibility to the small-minded mean and nasty comments of the
few. <BR><BR>Perhaps the VIZ has served its purpose and its
usefulness. Or, perhaps there should be some "rules" or "protocols"
for the Vision2020 site. Perhaps the site should be
restructured - charge small fee, get a new site, establish rules and
protocols. <BR><BR>Perhaps those that wish to continue poor
behavior and actions that would denigrate selected individuals
should acquire their own blog site and post whatever they
wish.<BR><BR>If the VIZ is to continue, its patrons should consider
a refocus on the stated goals and objectives of the
VIZ.<BR><BR>Finally, according to the Vision2020
website:<BR><BR>
<TABLE style="COLOR: #000000" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD width=400>
<TABLE style="COLOR: #000000">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD width=400 colSpan=2>Vision 2020 has no bylaws,
budget or membership requirements. Its activities are
coordinated by a <U>three-member steering committee
chosen annually by
consensus</U>.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>By
the way, who are the individuals currently serving on the Steering
Committee and when is the election for the positions
held?<BR><BR><BR>
<H3>Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995</H3>
<OL>
<LI>To ensure that all parts of our community have an opportunity
to take part in visualizing and planning for the community's
future. <BR><BR>
<LI>To strengthen citizens' sense of community by promoting
awareness, ownership and investment in Moscow's future. <BR><BR>
<LI>To foster cooperation among (and public involvement with) the
agencies and organizations that plan for and make decisions about
the future of Moscow and Latah County. <BR><BR>
<LI>To raise awareness on the part of citizens and public
officials that: <BR><BR>
<OL>
<LI>uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have negative effects.
<BR><BR>
<LI>short-term decisions have long-term consequences.
</LI></OL><BR>
<LI>To inform ourselves about growth and development issues.
<BR><BR>
<LI>To have fun thinking critically and creatively.
</LI></OL><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN><BR><SPAN>List
services made available by First Step
Internet,</SPAN><BR><SPAN>serving the communities of the Palouse
since
1994.</SPAN><BR><SPAN>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net"
target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN><BR><SPAN>List
services made available by First Step Internet,</SPAN><BR><SPAN>serving
the communities of the Palouse since
1994.</SPAN><BR><SPAN>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net"
target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>
<FIELDSET class=ecxmimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR><PRE>=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<A class=ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.fsr.net" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A>
<A class=ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A>
=======================================================</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of
the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
=======================================================</DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
=======================================================<BR>List services made
available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the Palouse
since
1994.<BR>
http://www.fsr.net<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>