[Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????
Scott Dredge
scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Wed Jan 30 22:01:21 PST 2013
The glaring anomaly I see with the viz is that Tom uses it as his personal blog, overposts, and attacks a lot folks who have different opinions that he has.
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:31:25 -0800
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Re: THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????
No that's not what I'm saying.
And don't confuse an attempt at actual dialogue with this sort of thing, sweeping ALL criticisms of Wayne's speech under the same irrelevant rug. As you point out and illustrate very often, who cares if you're offended.
Now if a threat was made that would be different. But so far no particular example has been given, nor is there one that I know of.
On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
So you're saying that we need to be careful when calling someone
out for dialogue that "belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans, or
attacks", lest we hurt some totally unrelated person's feelings?
What about the guy that is being complained about? Does he get a
free ride because he's "from the left"?
Paul
P.S. Yes, I know, I haven't always been the politest son of a
bitch on the list.
On 01/29/2013 10:37 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make above:
no one is perfect. And we don't need to look at insults from the
distant past. We can just refer to the letter below, where you
wrote:
"It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a debate, on
the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah County. That is
one of the prime objectives of Vision2020. It is quite another
thing when the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans
and/or attacks those who express themselves. Such actions do
little to advance the role and mission of Vision2020."
This strikes me as offensive and I think that other people from
the left who participate in V2020 would find it offensive also.
Here is another clue: I know several people (some who write on
V2020) who were offended by Wayne's initial speech, the one that
started this discussion. I know you don't care but that strikes me
as a big part of the problem.
But the offense that we're talking about here is the offense that
comes with free speech. Free speech (legally) allows that you not
only say what you will but that you say it how you wish. Of course
there are limits: you can't make threats, for instance (I'm
assuming that charge was just an ironic slip on your part). But I
can insult you just as you have insulted me so long as what we
mean by "insult" is confined to personal feelings; so long as it
is not quantifiable in some legal or moral way (slander, libel --
such as falsely claiming on V2020 that some particular person had
publicly threatened a city official).
I've been away, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts.
But I have read some posts by Rose and Debi, in particular, that
weren't "friendly" but contained some very substantive points that
are well worth discussing. Points that you completely wash over in
your over-general critique of this dialogue and the contributions
from Wayne's critics.
I like Wayne and I have no desire to drag out the details, which
is why I will avoid commenting on the issue itself. Nor does it
matter because if one wants to know what Rose and Debi and others
have said, one should just read the posts for oneself; don't
depend on Jeffs-notes versions of what they said.
It ain't always pretty, but discussions about substantive issues
-- especially when there is dramatic disagreement in key places --
are sometimes like that. What matters is the content and, as you
say, that should be the focus. That is one purpose of V2020: It
allows for the discussion of issues that are difficult to discuss.
Joe
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Joe
Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
wrote:
You've got to be kidding, Jeff. Should I track down
down some of the insulting comments you've made? Joe
On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] THE VIZ - Is It time for a
reset ??????
Date:
Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:46:01 -0800
From:
Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com>
Reply-To:
jeffh at moscow.com
To:
Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
I could not disagree with you more - individuals
are entitled to respect. Certainly one is entitled
to criticize a public officials positions on issues
- it is inappropriate to launch personal attacks.
On 1/25/2013 10:42 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
Mr. Harkins . . .
The
city council's public lives (such as when they
are in session) are public domain. As such,
they should expect, or at least anticipate, some
degree of ridicule (as long as it is clean) from
those who strongly disagree with them.
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's
room at the top they are telling you still
But first you
must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be
like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Jeff Harkins
<jeffh at moscow.com>
wrote:
Over the past several years, the
vitriolic nature of the dialogue posted to
Vision2020 has become increasingly hostile
and in many instances, highly personal.
It is one thing to have a robust
conversation, even a debate, on the pressing
issues confronting Moscow and Latah County.
That is one of the prime objectives of
Vision2020. It is quite another thing when
the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens,
demeans and/or attacks those who express
themselves. Such actions do little to
advance the role and mission of Vision2020.
Perhaps a review of the Vision2020 Mission
Statement will help to remind or raise
awareness of the intended purpose of this
website - the mission statement is appended
below.
I am reasonably confident that the intent of
First Step Internet in providing "free"
hosting for the site was not to endorse or
condone personal attacks - chiding,
slurring, harassment and threats. I know
that as a customer of FSI, I am not
interested in helping to fund a site that
allows unfettered personal attacks on
individuals. The recent "satire" posting
demeaning the words of Councilman Wayne
Krauss is a prime example of poor and
unwarranted behavior. I know that
Councilman Krauss would engage in a spirited
conversation on most topics. So, if one has
an issue with the Councilman, engage him in
a conversation. To mock his view is a
discredit to our community - it should stop.
I can only wonder what visitors from other
communities think about the despicable
nature of some of the posts. Is that the
sort of impression we want to promote to
visitors?
Now, it is true that not everyone posting to
the site is guilty of poor behavior - but
those who frequent the site know that there
are numerous individuals who do their best
to mock, harass and denigrate individuals.
Many will argue that the site should be self
policing; the "adult participants" should
work to discourage poor behavior. But that
doesn't seem to be very effective.
To be candid, if the Vision 2020 posters
can't find topics more worthy than mocking
an elected official's comments about "moral
decline" it is time to shut the blog site
down. There is little to be gained by
allowing individuals to denigrate our
community and its residents by lending
credibility to the small-minded mean and
nasty comments of the few.
Perhaps the VIZ has served its purpose and
its usefulness. Or, perhaps there should be
some "rules" or "protocols" for the
Vision2020 site. Perhaps the site should be
restructured - charge small fee, get a new
site, establish rules and protocols.
Perhaps those that wish to continue poor
behavior and actions that would denigrate
selected individuals should acquire their
own blog site and post whatever they wish.
If the VIZ is to continue, its patrons
should consider a refocus on the stated
goals and objectives of the VIZ.
Finally, according to the Vision2020
website:
Vision
2020 has no bylaws, budget
or membership requirements.
Its activities are
coordinated by a three-member
steering committee chosen
annually by consensus.
By the way, who are the individuals
currently serving on the Steering Committee
and when is the election for the positions
held?
Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted
March 1995
To ensure that all parts of our
community have an opportunity to take
part in visualizing and planning for the
community's future.
To strengthen citizens' sense of
community by promoting awareness,
ownership and investment in Moscow's
future.
To foster cooperation among (and
public involvement with) the agencies
and organizations that plan for and make
decisions about the future of Moscow and
Latah County.
To raise awareness on the part of
citizens and public officials that:
uncontrolled and unplanned growth
may have negative effects.
short-term decisions have
long-term consequences.
To inform ourselves about growth and
development issues.
To have fun thinking critically and
creatively.
=======================================================
List services made available by First
Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse
since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step
Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
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