[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
Gary Crabtree
moscowlocksmith at gmail.com
Thu Feb 21 07:47:31 PST 2013
In and of itself, no. If he grins, pulls a knife and advances, most likely
the answer will be a reluctant yes.
I realize full well how unlikely it is that a home defense scenario is,
living on the sleepy Palouse and own firearms for reasons that go beyond
protection. I simply do not want my rights curtailed based on the shaky
statistical argument of lack of need.
g
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
> So if the intoxicated college student who wanders into your home says "Or
> what?" your plan is to shoot him?
>
> You keep missing this point: the scenario that you imagine is improbable.
> There are other more probable scenarios where you end up harming yourself
> or an innocent victim rather than protecting yourself.
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:43 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
>
> The point that you and most of the other anti-firearm respondents
> continually miss is that I, nor Paul or Roger are not advocating the
> Fearless Fosdick/LAPD tactic of firing a warning shot into the back of the
> head of our lovable and slightly confused/intoxicated intruder. What I, and
> I believe the others are saying is that a weapon can be a usefull tool in
> certain situations and while some may elect to not have that tool at their
> disposal, I would like to be able to have it as one of my options. Any sane
> person would prefer that an intruder in their home simply leave when told.
> Having a weapon forestalls the intruders potential response of "or what."
>
> g
>
> *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:28 PM
> *To:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> ; Art Deco<art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
> I guess that would work if you sat behind your door with a gun waiting
> for an unexpected guest. The smartest thing to do if you suspect people are
> trying to get into your house would be to exit through the nearest door or
> window. Then call the police. When they exit the house the police will be
> there to nab them, or you can slash their tires and have fun watching them
> trying to escape with your insured television.
>
> Keep in mind, if you shoot an unarmed person that is not 100% in your
> house you are in legal trouble. A dead body in your house will be cleaned
> up and removed at your expense, and it isn't cheap. And you will have to
> disclose the death on the sale of the home, which will cost you $10,000s.
> You will have to live with the fact that you probably killed an innocent
> person. Chances are someone that entered your home unexpectedly in
> Moscow would be an intoxicated college student whose biggest threat would
> be vomits on your living room carpet.
>
> There are countless risks for getting into a gun battle with an unknown
> person, the risks of insuring your belongs and beating feet at the sign of
> danger are much less and have far better outcomes. I'm not against owning a
> gun, but that scenario is a stupid reason to use a gun. I would use a gun
> if I was out of the immediate reach of the police and there was a clear and
> present danger to my life or the life of another. With the possible
> exception if I was robbed constantly with no help from the police or
> insurance companies.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
> *From:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
> *To:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
> The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.
>
> Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without invitation.
>
> Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder and request
> (insist) they leave.
>
> Outcome. They comply or they do not.
>
> Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.
>
> Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.
>
> The real problem stems from not having the proper tools to affect the
> desired outcome.
>
> g
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> The problem of dealing with intruders involves sometimes a dangerous
> lack of information.
>
> Is the intruder armed?
>
> Is there more than one?
>
> What are the intentions of of the intruder?
>
> Who is the intruder? Is she/he someone known? What is the relevant
> history of the intruder?
>
> Are there effective/non-lethal ways of neutralizing the intruder?
>
> How can those intruded upon calculate the the risk to themselves, and
> decide upon the action to be taken?
>
>
> w.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> These are empirically claims. Could be that pulling out a gun increases
> your risk. It depends on a lot of factors.
>
> The big question is: does the potential for help outweigh the risk of harm?
>
> And I hate to tell you that in a region with a low incidence of gun
> violence, the answer is 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him
> harm than they are to protect him.
>
> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent to
> staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings or
> continued good health.
>
> g
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> This is what listening to pop music can do to you!
>
> Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a deterrent.
>
> On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put anybody down.
>
> sr
>
> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800
>
> Now you're just monkeeing around.
>
> g
>
> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
> *Cc:* vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
> The premise of your post was that he was breaking into homes when people
> were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill you. No, if he saw your
> face, he'd be a believer, not a killer.
>
>
> Sunil
>
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
>
> It didn't say he was. If he did, though, I'd want to be able to protect
> myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was empty and he got it
> through his head that I had to die because I'd seen his face. Or maybe
> he's desperate, and now he's willing to try hitting a house that is
> occupied but looks like he could rob it regardless.
>
> It's a tool of preparedness. I'd rather not assume that he's harmless if
> he's breaking into houses and robbing them. If my assumption is wrong, I
> could die. I'd rather not throw away my chance at survival because "OMG!
> Guns are bad!"
>
> It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking
> into my house. But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns
> out my life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could throw at
> him, or whatever I happened to have at hand.
>
> This isn't rocket science. Be prepared. It's the good old Boy Scout
> motto. I also have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.
>
> Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!" narrative drive your views.
>
> Paul
>
> On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> Where does it say he's breaking into homes when people are in? I had a lot
> of burglary cases, and my mistakenly charged clients were usually alleged
> to have entered homes when no one was there. Lots easier to leave with
> stuff that way, said the authorities.
>
> Sunil
>
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: thansen at moscow.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
>
> What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being ready to defend
> yourself when you're at home when there is a known burglar in the area?
> Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid. If someone is
> crazy enough to break into your home while you are there, you can go ahead
> and classify that as a situation fraught with danger, in which case having
> some means to protect yourself might be called for. There are plenty of
> reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a member of the
> household when he thought the place was empty that could end up very badly
> for the person he stumbled upon. If the burglar knew you were at home and
> invaded the home anyway, then you've definitely got a problem if you are
> happily unarmed.
>
> Better to have that gun when you need it than not. If guns frighten you,
> which I find hard to believe because of your military background, then at
> least pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.
>
> Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper cables in my
> trunk in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a kind stranger? Are
> you one of those people that joyously flit from situation to situation
> relying on the gods to keep you out of trouble?
>
> Paul
>
> On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>
> <ATT00001>
>
> Paranoia . . . self-destroya.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares"
> http://www.moscowcares.com/
>
> Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
>
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> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
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