[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

Thu Feb 21 06:50:09 PST 2013

So if the intoxicated college student who wanders into your home says "Or
what?" your plan is to shoot him?

You keep missing this point: the scenario that you imagine is improbable.
There are other more probable scenarios where you end up harming yourself
or an innocent victim rather than protecting yourself.

On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:43 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

The point that you and most of the other anti-firearm respondents
continually miss is that I, nor Paul or Roger are not advocating the
Fearless Fosdick/LAPD tactic of firing a warning shot into the back of the
head of our lovable and slightly confused/intoxicated intruder. What I, and
I believe the others are saying is that a weapon can be a usefull tool in
certain situations and while some may elect to not have that tool at their
disposal, I would like to be able to have it as one of my options. Any sane
person would prefer that an intruder in their home simply leave when told.
Having a weapon forestalls the intruders potential response of "or what."

g

 *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:28 PM
*To:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> ; Art
Deco<art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
*Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

 I guess that would work if you sat behind your door with a gun waiting for
an unexpected guest. The smartest thing to do if you suspect people are
trying to get into your house would be to exit through the nearest door or
window. Then call the police. When they exit the house the police will be
there to nab them, or you can slash their tires and have fun watching them
trying to escape with your insured television.

Keep in mind, if you shoot an unarmed person that is not 100% in your house
you are in legal trouble. A dead body in your house will be cleaned up and
removed at your expense, and it isn't cheap. And you will have to disclose
the death on the sale of the home, which will cost you $10,000s. You will
have to live with the fact that you probably killed an innocent person.
Chances are someone that entered your home unexpectedly in Moscow would be
an intoxicated college student whose biggest threat would be vomits on your
living room carpet.

There are countless risks for getting into a gun battle with an unknown
person, the risks of insuring your belongs and beating feet at the sign of
danger are much less and have far better outcomes. I'm not against owning a
gun, but that scenario is a stupid reason to use a gun. I would use a gun
if I was out of the immediate reach of the police and there was a clear and
present danger to my life or the life of another. With the possible
exception if I was robbed constantly with no help from the police or
insurance companies.

Donovan J. Arnold

  *From:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
*To:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
*Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:33 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

 The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.

Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without invitation.

Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder and request
(insist) they leave.

Outcome. They comply or they do not.

Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.

Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.

The real problem stems from not having the proper tools to affect the
desired outcome.

g

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>wrote:

   The problem of dealing with intruders involves sometimes a dangerous
lack of information.

Is the intruder armed?

Is there more than one?

What are the intentions of of the intruder?

Who is the intruder?  Is she/he someone known?  What is the relevant
history of the intruder?

Are there effective/non-lethal ways of neutralizing the intruder?

How can those intruded upon calculate the the risk to themselves, and
decide upon the action to be taken?

w.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:

 These are empirically claims. Could be that pulling out a gun increases
your risk. It depends on a lot of factors.

The big question is: does the potential for help outweigh the risk of harm?

And I hate to tell you that in a region with a low incidence of gun
violence, the answer is 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him
harm than they are to protect him.

On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
wrote:

  Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent to
staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings or
continued good health.

g

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:

 This is what listening to pop music can do to you!

Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a deterrent.

On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:

 But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put anybody down.

sr

 From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800

Now you're just monkeeing around.

g

 *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
*Cc:* vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

The premise of your post was that he was breaking into homes when people
were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill you. No, if he saw your
face, he'd be a believer, not a killer.

Sunil

 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

It didn't say he was.  If he did, though, I'd want to be able to protect
myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was empty and he got it
through his head that I had to die because I'd seen his face.  Or maybe
he's desperate, and now he's willing to try hitting a house that is
occupied but looks like he could rob it regardless.

It's a tool of preparedness.  I'd rather not assume that he's harmless if
he's breaking into houses and robbing them.  If my assumption is wrong, I
could die.  I'd rather not throw away my chance at survival because "OMG!
Guns are bad!"

It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking into
my house.  But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns out my
life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could throw at him,
or whatever I happened to have at hand.

This isn't rocket science.  Be prepared.  It's the good old Boy Scout
motto.   I also have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.

Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!" narrative drive your views.

Paul

On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:

 Paul,

Where does it say he's breaking into homes when people are in? I had a lot
of burglary cases, and my mistakenly charged clients were usually alleged
to have entered homes when no one was there. Lots easier to leave with
stuff that way, said the authorities.

Sunil

 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: thansen at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being ready to defend
yourself when you're at home when there is a known burglar in the area?
Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid.  If someone is
crazy enough to break into your home while you are there, you can go ahead
and classify that as a situation fraught with danger, in which case having
some means to protect yourself might be called for.  There are plenty of
reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a member of the
household when he thought the place was empty that could end up very badly
for the person he stumbled upon.  If the burglar knew you were at home and
invaded the home anyway, then you've definitely got a problem if you are
happily unarmed.

Better to have that gun when you need it than not.  If guns frighten you,
which I find hard to believe because of your military background, then at
least pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.

Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper cables in my trunk
in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a kind stranger?  Are you
one of those people that joyously flit from situation to situation relying
on the gods to keep you out of trouble?

Paul

On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:

<ATT00001>

Paranoia . . . self-destroya.

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.moscowcares.com/

 Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

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