[Vision2020] "We are the answer"

Sat Mar 31 18:58:48 PDT 2012

Keely,

It doesn't matter who we support, anyone that relates to and fights for the average American will not be funded by the Super PACs that fund the career politicians. Even when the majority of people vote for a candidate, like in 2000, doesn't mean they get to take office. I support Obama because there is nobody better that stands a chance of winning. 

I honestly believe that most of the politicians don't even really buy the rhetoric they are peddling to the public, it is red meat to motivate the masses of people to vote for them. 

My fear is that American citizens and innocents abroad, as Sunil points out, are being harmed as a result of our foreign politics and the US is acting more like an imperialist greedy nation than one of good will and for spreading democracy around the the world--regardless of whom holds the title of Mr. President. 

Donovan Arnold

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: godshatter at yahoo.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"

To answer your question:  No, I wouldn't support some sort of mind-control mechanism to make Klan members change their minds.  Which is why I'm generally against the idea of some sort of faux-salvific "civic religion," because it doesn't change hearts, and I'm opposed to most attempts to legislate victimless moral behaviors -- it doesn't change hearts, and until hearts are changed, mind-control devices (fancifully) and legally banning ugly speech (practically) are just weak patches that ultimately do little good.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"

On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote: 
1. Rumelhart writes:
>
>"If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others on this list.  If Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of each other."
>
>Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same amount of tenacity to the following:
>
>"If KKK members wearing hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others on this list.  If Aryan Nations members and other white supremacists  in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of each other."
>
Yes, actually I would.  If one group is harassing another group merely because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for more tolerance.  I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK members were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it would be my reaction if someone just simply declared that they supported the KKK and they were getting harassed for it.

It's really not that difficult of a concept.  It's not my purpose in life to force everyone to think my way.  Individualism and the sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me.  I'm only interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.

Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device that could be used on people to (among other things) change their core beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?

>2.  Rumelhart also writes:
>
>"But if one particular faith is being singled out because of their beliefs and some bad blood between list members, I'm effectively shunned if I suggest that we be more tolerant of them."
>
>So now its all about you, Rumelhart.  Who would have guessed?  Poor, poor Rumelhart.
>
Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much about it.  I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance can't be tolerated on this list.  I don't know about you, but I find that ironic.

Paul  (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")

>
>w.
>
>
>On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
>
>No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that the Christ Church people "simply think that the historical facts of slavery differ from what's normally understood by historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view caused our thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their censure by the Governor and the UI President.  
>>
>>Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his mission . . .  
>>
>>Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous -- or Christian -- society beyond that.  His proud claim to be a "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers that Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that such slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally, at something less than mere errors of historical understanding.  I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I can assure you that Antebellum slavery was in no way similar to Roman or earlier Hebraic slaveholding, and it was not at any point "Biblically defensible."  Given that he makes his living pulling the hermeneutical and political wool over other Christians' eyes, it damned well matters.
>>
>>It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history.  I'm probably not the person to go to on the finer details of the Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors would be inconsequential and subject to the derision they deserve if I choose to spout off on that of which I know nothing, although if I "see differently" in the service of a dangerous agenda, much less call that agenda "Christian," I deserve every bit of condemnation I incur.  I won't call you "evil" for it, but I struggle with how to tell you how little I care that you and others consider me "intolerant" for condemning Wilson and his lackeys (a term I used in speaking to him by phone three weeks ago, just in case you think I feel like it's OK to just scurry around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with him personally.  Been there, done that, will do it again any time he's up to it).
>>
>>I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower.  Such ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life.  But I would urge you to really consider if all "different thinking" on historical, social, political, and religious matters is benign and worthy of defense.  
>>
>>In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the worst type -- that which invokes God.  Its spread won't be because I and a few others stayed silent in its metastasizing.  
>>
>>Keely
>>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700
>>From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com 
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
>>
>>
>>If members of Christ Church were going around enslaving people, you might have a point.  As it is, they simply think that the historical facts of slavery differ from what's normally understood by historians.  I'm not comfortable ostracizing a group merely because of what they think about something.  That seems to be the main point of contention, here.  
>>
>>There is a huge difference between murdering a person based solely on their race or culture, and thinking, well, whatever it is that the Christ Churchers think exactly about slavery in the Old South.  Or, more simply, between murdering anyone for any reason and thinking thoughts others find offensive.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: 
>>Paul,
>>> 
>>>You are right that everyone needs to work on caring and accepting their neighbors for the people that they are. However, it should concern you that some people do not acknowledge the human atrocities that occurred with the slavery of a race not that long ago. A race that even today feels and sufferers the consequences of those events. It is in effect racist to not acknowledge the human suffering and violations that occurred to a race of people. If we can ignore or deceive others into ignoring one of the greatest human rights violations in the United States, than we can easily ignore all other human rights violations. Which, in effect, puts all humans, including yourself and everyone you care about at risk. Where one person's rights are ignored and violated, everyone else can be violated as well. That should concern you. It is not the practice or belief in a religion that people object to, but rather the practice of racist preaching that the
 violation of human rights that occurred to Blacks in the United States really didn't happen that people are objecting to. 
>>> 
>>>Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> 
>>>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
>>>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
>>>
>>>
>>>If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd 
>>>be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others on this 
>>>list.  If Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting 
>>>that we should all be more tolerant of each other.  But if one 
>>>particular faith is being singled out because of their beliefs and some 
>>>bad blood between list members, I'm effectively shunned if I suggest 
>>>that we be more tolerant of them.
>>>
>>>What a world.
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>>>> Visionaries:
>>>>
>>>> I know not all here would agree -- some choose to focus on the "intolerance"
>>>> of so-called Intoleristas rather than on the public intolerance of bigoted
>>>> groups that galvanized some of us to pull our complacent heads from the sand
>>>> -- but this eloquently and accurately reflects my thoughts:
>>>> "We must be active architects of a better country and a better world.
>>>> Silence in the face of bigotry and discrimination is agreement and consent.
>>>> We must challenge every instance of inequality, no matter how small it is.
>>>> While overcoming our history's dark side is not pleasant, it is something we
>>>> must actively do every day."
>>>>
>>>> Here's the full letter that was published in today's Moscow-Pullman Daily
>>>> News:
>>>>
>>>> Letter to the Editor
>>>> We are the answer
>>>> Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am | Updated: 8:22 am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.
>>>>
>>>> My heart is deeply grieved by the recent news that Shaima Alawadi, an Iraqi
>>>> mother of five living in California was beaten to death by a tire iron.
>>>> Found on her body was a note that said, "Go back to your own country. You're
>>>> a terrorist." This incident shows the long-reaching effects the political
>>>> rhetoric and rancor of the past 10 years has had on the American psyche. A
>>>> spark of anger and hatred spurred by our popular culture and political
>>>> leaders has turned into a fire within the fringe of our country.
>>>>
>>>> Gay youth are committing suicide due to relentless intimidation and
>>>> harassment. Travyon Martin was gunned down for what some call "wearing a
>>>> hood while black." And the murder of Alawadi. All point to a startling
>>>> problem. There is a dark side of American culture. While it's underground,
>>>> it's still there. A deep seated resentment of other races, of people unlike
>>>> us, lies in the hearts of many. This dark side exists everywhere. I cannot
>>>> count how many times I have heard racial, homophobic and sexist slurs at
>>>> sporting events, social gatherings, even in the work place and classes. This
>>>> isn't just a problem isolated to my community, but it is ingrained within
>>>> the very fabric of our society.
>>>>
>>>> It would be easy for us to give up hope, hope of a better tomorrow, a
>>>> tomorrow without wrathful hatred and reckless violence. But we cannot. We
>>>> are the answer to the problem. We must be active architects of a better
>>>> country and a better world. Silence in the face of bigotry and
>>>> discrimination is agreement and consent. We must challenge every instance of
>>>> inequality, no matter how small it is. While overcoming our history's dark
>>>> side is not pleasant, it is something we must actively do every day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Derrick Skaug
>>>> ASWSU Vice-President Elect
>>>> Pullman
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Saundra Lund
>>>> Moscow, ID
>>>>
>>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
>>>> nothing.
>>>> ~ Edmund Burke
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
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>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>
>>>=======================================================
>>>List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>              http://www.fsr.net
>>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>=======================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================
>>=======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>              http://www.fsr.net
>>         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================

======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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