[Vision2020] "We are the answer"
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Sat Mar 31 13:04:51 PDT 2012
To answer your question: No, I wouldn't support some sort of mind-control mechanism to make Klan members change their minds. Which is why I'm generally against the idea of some sort of faux-salvific "civic religion," because it doesn't change hearts, and I'm opposed to most attempts to legislate victimless moral behaviors -- it doesn't change hearts, and until hearts are changed, mind-control devices (fancifully) and legally banning ugly speech (practically) are just weak patches that ultimately do little good.
Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
1. Rumelhart writes:
"If black teenagers wearing
hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that
we should all be more tolerant of others on this list. If
Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting
that we should all be more tolerant of each other."
Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same amount of
tenacity to the following:
"If KKK members wearing hoods
were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we
should all be more tolerant of others on this list. If Aryan
Nations members and other white supremacists in Moscow were
being harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more
tolerant of each other."
Yes, actually I would. If one group is harassing another group
merely because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for
more tolerance. I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK
members were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it
would be my reaction if someone just simply declared that they
supported the KKK and they were getting harassed for it.
It's really not that difficult of a concept. It's not my purpose in
life to force everyone to think my way. Individualism and the
sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me. I'm only
interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.
Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device
that could be used on people to (among other things) change their
core beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?
2. Rumelhart also writes:
"But if one particular faith
is being singled out because of their beliefs and some bad blood
between list members, I'm effectively shunned if I suggest that
we be more tolerant of them."
So now its all about you, Rumelhart. Who would have guessed?
Poor, poor Rumelhart.
Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much
about it. I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance
can't be tolerated on this list. I don't know about you, but I find
that ironic.
Paul (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")
w.
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely
emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
wrote:
No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that
the Christ Church people "simply think that the historical
facts of slavery differ from what's normally understood by
historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view caused
our thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their
censure by the Governor and the UI President.
Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his
extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his
mission . . .
Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those
words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable
society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to
anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous --
or Christian -- society beyond that. His proud claim to
be a "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers
that Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that
such slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally,
at something less than mere errors of historical
understanding. I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I
can assure you that Antebellum slavery was in no way
similar to Roman or earlier Hebraic slaveholding, and it
was not at any point "Biblically defensible." Given that
he makes his living pulling the hermeneutical and
political wool over other Christians' eyes, it damned well
matters.
It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history.
I'm probably not the person to go to on the finer details
of the Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors
would be inconsequential and subject to the derision they
deserve if I choose to spout off on that of which I know
nothing, although if I "see differently" in the service of
a dangerous agenda, much less call that agenda
"Christian," I deserve every bit of condemnation I incur.
I won't call you "evil" for it, but I struggle with how to
tell you how little I care that you and others consider me
"intolerant" for condemning Wilson and his lackeys (a term
I used in speaking to him by phone three weeks ago, just
in case you think I feel like it's OK to just scurry
around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with
him personally. Been there, done that, will do it again
any time he's up to it).
I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer
intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower. Such
ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life. But I
would urge you to really consider if all "different
thinking" on historical, social, political, and religious
matters is benign and worthy of defense.
In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the
worst type -- that which invokes God. Its spread won't be
because I and a few others stayed silent in its
metastasizing.
Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
If members of Christ Church were going around
enslaving people, you might have a point. As it is,
they simply think that the historical facts of
slavery differ from what's normally understood by
historians. I'm not comfortable ostracizing a group
merely because of what they think about something.
That seems to be the main point of contention,
here.
There is a huge difference between murdering a
person based solely on their race or culture, and
thinking, well, whatever it is that the Christ
Churchers think exactly about slavery in the Old
South. Or, more simply, between murdering anyone
for any reason and thinking thoughts others find
offensive.
Paul
On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
Paul,
You are right that everyone needs to
work on caring and accepting their neighbors
for the people that they are. However, it
should concern you that some people do not acknowledge
the human atrocities
that occurred
with the slavery of a race not that long
ago. A race that even today feels and sufferers
the consequences
of those events. It is in effect racist to
not acknowledge
the human suffering and violations that occurred
to a race of people. If we can ignore or deceive
others into ignoring one of the greatest
human rights violations in the United
States, than we can easily ignore all other
human rights violations. Which, in effect,
puts all humans, including yourself and
everyone you care about at risk. Where one
person's rights are ignored and violated, everyone
else can be
violated as well. That should concern you.
It is not the practice or belief in a
religion that people object to, but rather
the practice of racist preaching that the
violation of human rights that occurred
to Blacks in the United States really didn't
happen that people are objecting to.
Donovan Arnold
From:
Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To:
Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
Cc:
vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent:
Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
If black teenagers wearing hoods were being
harassed here in Moscow, I'd
be suggesting that we should all be more
tolerant of others on this
list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being
harassed I'd be suggesting
that we should all be more tolerant of each
other. But if one
particular faith is being singled out
because of their beliefs and some
bad blood between list members, I'm
effectively shunned if I suggest
that we be more tolerant of them.
What a world.
Paul
On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> Visionaries:
>
> I know not all here would agree -- some
choose to focus on the "intolerance"
> of so-called Intoleristas
rather than on the public intolerance of
bigoted
> groups that galvanized some of us to
pull our complacent heads from the sand
> -- but this eloquently and accurately
reflects my thoughts:
> "We must be active architects of a
better country and a better world.
> Silence in the face of bigotry and
discrimination is agreement and consent.
> We must challenge every instance of
inequality, no matter how small it is.
> While overcoming our history's dark
side is not pleasant, it is something we
> must actively do every day."
>
> Here's the full letter that was
published in today's Moscow-Pullman Daily
> News:
>
> Letter to the Editor
> We are the answer
> Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am
| Updated: 8:22 am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.
>
> My heart is deeply grieved by the
recent news that Shaima Alawadi,
an Iraqi
> mother of five living in California was
beaten to death by a tire iron.
> Found on her body was a note that said,
"Go back to your own country. You're
> a terrorist." This incident shows the
long-reaching effects the political
> rhetoric and rancor of the past 10
years has had on the American psyche. A
> spark of anger and hatred spurred by
our popular culture and political
> leaders has turned into a fire within
the fringe of our country.
>
> Gay youth are committing suicide due to
relentless intimidation and
> harassment. Travyon
Martin was gunned down for what some call
"wearing a
> hood while black." And the murder of Alawadi.
All point to a startling
> problem. There is a dark side of
American culture. While it's underground,
> it's still there. A deep seated
resentment of other races, of people unlike
> us, lies in the hearts of many. This
dark side exists everywhere. I cannot
> count how many times I have heard
racial, homophobic and sexist slurs at
> sporting events, social gatherings,
even in the work place and classes. This
> isn't just a problem isolated to my
community, but it is ingrained within
> the very fabric of our society.
>
> It would be easy for us to give up
hope, hope of a better tomorrow, a
> tomorrow without wrathful hatred and
reckless violence. But we cannot. We
> are the answer to the problem. We must
be active architects of a better
> country and a better world. Silence in
the face of bigotry and
> discrimination is agreement and
consent. We must challenge every instance of
> inequality, no matter how small it is.
While overcoming our history's dark
> side is not pleasant, it is something
we must actively do every day.
>
>
> Derrick Skaug
> ASWSU Vice-President
Elect
> Pullman
>
> __________
>
> Indeed.
>
>
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the
triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> ~ Edmund Burke
>
>
>
>
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since 1994.
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>
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List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
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--
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
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http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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