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To answer your question:  No, I wouldn't support some sort of mind-control mechanism to make Klan members change their minds.  Which is why I'm generally against the idea of some sort of faux-salvific "civic religion," because it doesn't change hearts, and I'm opposed to most attempts to legislate victimless moral behaviors -- it doesn't change hearts, and until hearts are changed, mind-control devices (fancifully) and legally banning ugly speech (practically) are just weak patches that ultimately do little good.<br><br><font style="" color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font style="" face="Verdana">Keely<br>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<br></font></font></font><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: art.deco.studios@gmail.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br><br>

  
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    On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com">1. Rumelhart writes:<br>
      <br>
      <span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 153)">"If black teenagers wearing
        hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that
        we should all be more tolerant of others on this list.  If
        Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting
        that we should all be more tolerant of each other."</span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 153)">
      <br>
      Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same amount of
      tenacity to the following:<br>
      <br>
      <span style="color:rgb(255, 0, 0)">"If KKK members wearing hoods
        were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we
        should all be more tolerant of others on this list.  If Aryan
        Nations members and other white supremacists  in Moscow were
        being harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more
        tolerant of each other."</span><br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes, actually I would.  If one group is harassing another group
    merely because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for
    more tolerance.  I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK
    members were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it
    would be my reaction if someone just simply declared that they
    supported the KKK and they were getting harassed for it.<br>
    <br>
    It's really not that difficult of a concept.  It's not my purpose in
    life to force everyone to think my way.  Individualism and the
    sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me.  I'm only
    interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.<br>
    <br>
    Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device
    that could be used on people to (among other things) change their
    core beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com">
      <br>
      2.  Rumelhart also writes:<br>
      <br>
      <span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 153)">"But if one particular faith
        is being singled out because of their beliefs and some bad blood
        between list members, I'm effectively shunned if I suggest that
        we be more tolerant of them."</span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0,\00000d\00000a        153)">
      <br>
      So now its all about you, Rumelhart.  Who would have guessed? 
      Poor, poor Rumelhart.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much
    about it.  I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance
    can't be tolerated on this list.  I don't know about you, but I find
    that ironic.<br>
    <br>
    Paul  (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
      <br>
      w.<br>
      <br>
      <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely
        emerinemix <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a>></span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that
              the Christ Church people "simply think that the historical
              facts of slavery differ from what's normally understood by
              historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view caused
              our thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their
              censure by the Governor and the UI President.  <br>
              <br>
              Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his
              extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his
              mission . . .  <br>
              <br>
              Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those
              words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable
              society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to
              anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous --
              or Christian -- society beyond that.  His proud claim to
              be a "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
              Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers
              that Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that
              such slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally,
              at something less than mere errors of historical
              understanding.  I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I
              can assure you that Antebellum slavery was in no way
              similar to Roman or earlier Hebraic slaveholding, and it
              was not at any point "Biblically defensible."  Given that
              he makes his living pulling the hermeneutical and
              political wool over other Christians' eyes, it damned well
              matters.<br>
              <br>
              It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history. 
              I'm probably not the person to go to on the finer details
              of the Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors
              would be inconsequential and subject to the derision they
              deserve if I choose to spout off on that of which I know
              nothing, although if I "see differently" in the service of
              a dangerous agenda, much less call that agenda
              "Christian," I deserve every bit of condemnation I incur. 
              I won't call you "evil" for it, but I struggle with how to
              tell you how little I care that you and others consider me
              "intolerant" for condemning Wilson and his lackeys (a term
              I used in speaking to him by phone three weeks ago, just
              in case you think I feel like it's OK to just scurry
              around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with
              him personally.  Been there, done that, will do it again
              any time he's up to it).<br>
              <br>
              I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer
              intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower.  Such
              ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life.  But I
              would urge you to really consider if all "different
              thinking" on historical, social, political, and religious
              matters is benign and worthy of defense.  <br>
              <br>
              In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the
              worst type -- that which invokes God.  Its spread won't be
              because I and a few others stayed silent in its
              metastasizing.  <br>
              <br>
              <font color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font face="Verdana">Keely<br>
                    <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com" target="_blank">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br>
                  </font></font></font><br>
              <br>
              <div>
                <hr>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700<br>
                From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
                To: <a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
                CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5"><br>
                    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    If members of Christ Church were going around
                    enslaving people, you might have a point.  As it is,
                    they simply think that the historical facts of
                    slavery differ from what's normally understood by
                    historians.  I'm not comfortable ostracizing a group
                    merely because of what they think about something. 
                    That seems to be the main point of contention,
                    here.  <br>
                    <br>
                    There is a huge difference between murdering a
                    person based solely on their race or culture, and
                    thinking, well, whatever it is that the Christ
                    Churchers think exactly about slavery in the Old
                    South.  Or, more simply, between murdering anyone
                    for any reason and thinking thoughts others find
                    offensive.<br>
                    <br>
                    Paul<br>
                    <br>
                    On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
                    <blockquote>
                      <div>
                        <div><span>Paul,</span></div>
                        <div><span></span> </div>
                        <div><span>You are right that everyone needs to
                            work on caring and accepting their neighbors
                            for the people that they are. However, it
                            should concern you that some people do not <span><span>acknowledge</span></span>
                            the human <span><span>atrocities</span></span>
                            that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
                            with the slavery of a race not that long
                            ago. A race that even today feels and <span><span>sufferers</span></span>
                            the <span><span>consequences</span></span>
                            of those events. It is in effect racist to
                            not <span><span>acknowledge</span></span>
                            the human suffering and violations that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
                            to a race of people. If we can ignore or <span><span>deceive</span></span>
                            others into ignoring one of the greatest
                            human rights violations in the United
                            States, than we can easily ignore all other
                            human rights violations. Which, in effect,
                            puts all humans, including yourself and
                            everyone you care about at risk. Where one
                            person's rights are ignored and violated, <span><span>everyone
                                <span>else</span></span></span> can be
                            violated as well. That should concern you.
                            It is not the practice or belief in a
                            religion that people object to, but rather
                            the practice of racist preaching that the
                            violation of human rights that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
                            to Blacks in the United States really didn't
                            happen that people are objecting to. </span></div>
                        <div><span></span> </div>
                        <div><span>Donovan Arnold</span></div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
                          <div style="font-family:times new roman,new\00000d\00000a                            york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
                            <div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                Paul Rumelhart <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                Saundra Lund <a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm"><v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm></a>
                                <br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
                                <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                                <br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                                Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM<br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br>
                              </font></div>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            If black teenagers wearing hoods were being
                            harassed here in Moscow, I'd <br>
                            be suggesting that we should all be more
                            tolerant of others on this <br>
                            list.  If Muslim women in Moscow were being
                            harassed I'd be suggesting <br>
                            that we should all be more tolerant of each
                            other.  But if one <br>
                            particular faith is being singled out
                            because of their beliefs and some <br>
                            bad blood between list members, I'm
                            effectively shunned if I suggest <br>
                            that we be more tolerant of them.<br>
                            <br>
                            What a world.<br>
                            <br>
                            Paul<br>
                            <br>
                            On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:<br>
                            > Visionaries:<br>
                            ><br>
                            > I know not all here would agree -- some
                            choose to focus on the "intolerance"<br>
                            > of so-called <span>Intoleristas</span>
                            rather than on the public intolerance of
                            bigoted<br>
                            > groups that galvanized some of us to
                            pull our complacent heads from the sand<br>
                            > -- but this eloquently and accurately
                            reflects my thoughts:<br>
                            > "We must be active architects of a
                            better country and a better world.<br>
                            > Silence in the face of bigotry and
                            discrimination is agreement and consent.<br>
                            > We must challenge every instance of
                            inequality, no matter how small it is.<br>
                            > While overcoming our history's dark
                            side is not pleasant, it is something we<br>
                            > must actively do every day."<br>
                            ><br>
                            > Here's the full letter that was
                            published in today's Moscow-Pullman Daily<br>
                            > News:<br>
                            ><br>
                            > Letter to the Editor<br>
                            > We are the answer<br>
                            > Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am
                            | Updated: 8:22 am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.<br>
                            ><br>
                            > My heart is deeply grieved by the
                            recent news that <span>Shaima</span> <span>Alawadi</span>,
                            an Iraqi<br>
                            > mother of five living in California was
                            beaten to death by a tire iron.<br>
                            > Found on her body was a note that said,
                            "Go back to your own country. You're<br>
                            > a terrorist." This incident shows the
                            long-reaching effects the political<br>
                            > rhetoric and rancor of the past 10
                            years has had on the American psyche. A<br>
                            > spark of anger and hatred spurred by
                            our popular culture and political<br>
                            > leaders has turned into a fire within
                            the fringe of our country.<br>
                            ><br>
                            > Gay youth are committing suicide due to
                            relentless intimidation and<br>
                            > harassment. <span>Travyon</span>
                            Martin was gunned down for what some call
                            "wearing a<br>
                            > hood while black." And the murder of <span>Alawadi</span>.
                            All point to a startling<br>
                            > problem. There is a dark side of
                            American culture. While it's underground,<br>
                            > it's still there. A deep seated
                            resentment of other races, of people unlike<br>
                            > us, lies in the hearts of many. This
                            dark side exists everywhere. I cannot<br>
                            > count how many times I have heard
                            racial, homophobic and sexist slurs at<br>
                            > sporting events, social gatherings,
                            even in the work place and classes. This<br>
                            > isn't just a problem isolated to my
                            community, but it is ingrained within<br>
                            > the very fabric of our society.<br>
                            ><br>
                            > It would be easy for us to give up
                            hope, hope of a better tomorrow, a<br>
                            > tomorrow without wrathful hatred and
                            reckless violence. But we cannot. We<br>
                            > are the answer to the problem. We must
                            be active architects of a better<br>
                            > country and a better world. Silence in
                            the face of bigotry and<br>
                            > discrimination is agreement and
                            consent. We must challenge every instance of<br>
                            > inequality, no matter how small it is.
                            While overcoming our history's dark<br>
                            > side is not pleasant, it is something
                            we must actively do every day.<br>
                            ><br>
                            ><br>
                            > Derrick <span>Skaug</span><br>
                            > <span>ASWSU</span> Vice-President
                            Elect<br>
                            > Pullman<br>
                            ><br>
                            > __________<br>
                            ><br>
                            > Indeed.<br>
                            ><br>
                            ><br>
                            > Saundra Lund<br>
                            > Moscow, ID<br>
                            ><br>
                            > The only thing necessary for the
                            triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>
                            > nothing.<br>
                            > ~ Edmund Burke<br>
                            ><br>
                            ><br>
                            ><br>
                            >
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                            >                <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
                            >            <span>mailto</span>:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                            >
                            =======================================================<br>
                            ><br>
                            <br>
=======================================================<br>
                            List services made available by First Step
                            Internet,<br>
                            serving the communities of the <span>Palouse</span>
                            since 1994.<br>
                                          <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
                                      <span>mailto</span>:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    =======================================================

                    List services made available by First Step Internet,
                    serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          =======================================================<br>
           List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
           serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
                        <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
                   mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
          =======================================================<br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br clear="all">
      <br>
      -- <br>
      Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
      <a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
      <pre><fieldset class="ecxmimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>
          <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

<br>=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
=======================================================</div>                                       </div></body>
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