[Vision2020] Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model

[keely emerinemix]

You misunderstand me, Jay, when you suggest I'm in a "rock-throwing mood" in asking you to defend a market-driven business model for police and fire protection -- if, in fact, you believe those to be areas properly outside the realm of government, as you do with healthcare.  If you don't -- if you believe that police and fire services are the proper realm of government -- then I'd like to see why that's the case in one human-services arena and not another.  That's honest debate.  You believe that healthcare is not the provenance of government; I believe it ought to be.  You believe the business model you cite is an appropriate one for healthcare; I don't.  Mine seems to be a reasonable question -- if healthcare doesn't make your list of "what government ought to do," then does the provision of police and fire protection?  Why or why not?  

I suppose I could gripe about your using your TSA "strip-searching old ladies in wheelchairs" as a way to caricature those of us on the Left who see a more comprehensive role for government than you evidently do, but guess what?  I think the TSA and its activities have evolved into a threat to all of our civil liberties, which I imagine you agree with.  Turns out I'm not the uber-statist you believe me to be.  All I know of your putative libertarian leanings is in what you've written.  What I think you don't know about me is that my husband is a small-businessman and has been for 25 of our 27 years of marriage, that I'm a landlord, and that I was one of the movers behind the Moscow School District's effort in 2005, as a Board trustee, to build a new high school rather than continue to prop up a failing facility downtown.  In that area, I'm more pro-growth than you perhaps understand; I certainly have a grasp of the importance of business and I shudder at the over-reaching of the State in the lives of individuals.  I am pro-legalization of marijuana, pro-public education, pro-business, pro-choice, and pro-single-payer health insurance.  You might not find that easy to categorize, and you don't have to.  I wouldn't presume to proclaim, much less guess, about any of your socio-political leanings; I'll engage with you and your arguments based on the content of those arguments -- content that clearly states, as I believe you intend it to, that you favor a reduced role for government, particularly in healthcare, and would instead rely on the invisible hand of the market.  

When I suggest that that makes you Satan, you'll be free to guess that I'm just "rock throwing."  But since I haven't, and since it doesn't, why not just assume that my questions are as I've posed them?  

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com


Subject: RE: Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:51:07 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; moscowcares at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com



Well, while you’re in a rock-throwing mood, let me remind you that Donovan used Costco as an example tie-in to how Universal Health care would succeed.  I just saw it differently and used a different business to explain.  Play fair and divert some of your frustration his direction. So… no DMS or IRS handling your health insurance.  Ok.  We said “universal health care” and “government”.  Who WOULD be handling your health insurance?     Here’s a better question (to demonstrate extremes)… what agency/entity would be in charge of telling a hypochondriac that they “can’t see the doctor for the 12th time today for the sniffles”… or… what agency/entity would be in charge of telling someone that their plastic surgery isn’t covered… or… what agency/entity would be in charge of telling someone that their lasik surgery isn’t covered…  who would get to make the decisions on what IS and is NOT paid for by the government?   Yes, I do see success in market-driven forces in many aspects.  I believe that private enterprise has the ability to find savings and efficiencies where bloated bureaucracies do not.  But if you think I see them as a solution to every problem, then you are mistaken…  But I suggest you check your stereo-types and categorizations at the [proverbial] door.   Many “conservatives” have nothing to do with their political cartoon caricature counterparts. Your question regarding police and fire care (and asking me to defend it in a “market driven” context) makes as much sense as me asking to you defend the TSA and their wanting to strip-search little old ladies in wheel-chairs in a government-controlled context. Suffice to say, if I were “King for a Day”, my ideas for the police and fire department wouldn’t rest on a “for profit” model.  They would rely on expanding things like the citizen academy and the volunteer fire departments.   There are many solutions that (I believe) can exist in many areas of our society that have very little to do with pure government or pure capitalism. Jay   From: keely emerinemix [mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:18 PM
To: Jay Borden; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; moscowcares at moscow.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model I'm truly dismayed at how easy it is for you to articulate a cogent business model for the medical care of human beings.  I'm even more dismayed that you believe, or at least feel confident suggesting that you do, that the folks at DMV and the IRS handling your health insurance.  They wouldn't, of course, and no amount of arguing on my end will convince someone who holds government in disdain, as you evidently do, that under a single-payer system, DOCTORS and other medical professionals would manage your care -- not Brenda at DMV.

If you're so enamored of market-driven means by which to offer services that extend the lives of "consumers," would you explain, please, your argument for why it would be better to do away with "socialized" police and fire care in favor of a profit-driven, free-enterprise economic model such as you defend for healthcare?  I'm certain you're consistent in your arguments, and I'm truly interested in how you'd argue in favor of farming out police- and fire protection to for-profit private contractors.  

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

Subject: RE: Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:47:19 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; moscowcares at moscow.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.comI appreciate the kudos… but I’m not trying to pat myself on the back, only to demonstrate my view.    (And you’ve been more than kind in your responses… thank you). The missing piece in your analogy (of my analogy) is that I didn’t turn around and offer free widgets to everyone, and then turn around and only bill the people that can afford it.   On the contrary, when they want a new widget, they’ll have to pay for it.  And because they suddenly had to pay for it, they were much more scrutinizing of how the widget was used.  
You’re trying to connect the dots of my making customers responsible for their own widgets to Universal healthcare just “spreading the cost” around and tossing widgets into the street for anyone to consume. (Yes, this analogy is REALLY breaking down…) Costco’s model works because they tend to both BUY and SELL their inventory in BULK.  They are actually intended/marketed such that they sell to OTHER businesses (B2B), but if you’re an end-customer and want to purchase pianos in a 3-pack, that’s fine too.  (Yes, I know, you can get many merchandise items individually… but generally speaking most of their products are larger in both VOLUME and QUANTITY… I think I bought peanut butter from Costo 3 years ago and haven’t had to go back since…) If you link that to Universal Health Care and point to savings…. well I don’t know if I would purchase a dozen ER visits at a time, or choose the flu shot with “50% more!” If you want to make a link to another enterprise and point to savings, might I suggest Walmart. Walmart (by several other people’s description) is the “single choice” threat moving into any territory.   Walmart succeeds because they undercut competition (private practices) by offering lower prices.  They engage in supplier-specific contracts with individual suppliers to offer products that no one else can touch (semi-price-fixing)… and to sell their products ONLY in their store. On the flip side, because of Walmart, other retailers (doctors) can’t afford to stay in business.  (How many articles have I read where “someone used to own the local greenhouse/nursery, but now they just work at the Lawn & Garden at the local Walmart?”) The end result is a place that people hate to go, but have no other real alternative (since the other choices have been destroyed), purchasing inferior products/services that they can’t stand... Now… today, people are responsible for paying their own bills at Walmart.  That keeps the purchasing in check (minus the Walmart shop-a-holics). To press the analogy further,  imagine if Walmart suddenly said “all you can take buffet… pay one fee and take whatever you can carry off the shelves”.   People would start to grab two or three or four of items, even though they wouldn’t need them, because the cost difference is zero.  As a result, Walmart would have to RAISE prices to keep up with the “flat-fee” demand… (and at this point you head on down the slippery slope of starting to charge ONLY the more wealthy folks shopping at Walmart, yada yada yada…)  This is an obvious deadlock debate… I see widgets, you see universal health care, I see Walmart, you see Costco.   I have ZERO argument with anyone who says that the current health care system needs alterations… but I can see ZERO benefit in having the same folks that run the DMV and the IRS suddenly managing my health insurance… I see only disaster.  Jay    From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:30 AM
To: Jay Borden; Moscow Cares; keely emerinemix
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model Jay,I think it is great that you were able to turn a failing business. Not many people have that gift. I think your example does relate directly to health care, but in a way that gives credence to Universal Health Care and highlights problems with our current system of care.What you did to the failing widgets company is exactly what Universal Health Care does all over the world. Our health care system is like a business that is going broke, with unsatisfied customers because the way it is doing business. What kind of business lasts with 13% increases in costs annually and just keeps passing the cost to the customers? That didn't work for your predecessor, and it isn't working for health care either. The steps you took, are the ones Universal Health Care makes. First, you lowered costs of the widget so everyone that needed one could afford it. Universal Health Care does it the same way. It is the bulk of sales, not the high price per unit that makes it work financially, as you well know. The Costco model works better than the local jewelry model for high demand products and services. Second, you took steps to reduce costly replacements by prevention through education. Universal Health Care also works on this business model. By giving people the access to education on health and behavior and proper use of medications and treatments, the cost of repairs are greatly reduced because the damage never occurs in the first place. Finally, Universal Health Care works on the business principles you adopted of a fair contract that holds both parties accountable. Both you and Universal Health Care pay for about 100% of damage that is not the fault of the client. However, if the person is neglectful or uses it not as intended they are not completely covered, but you don't make the costs of fixing the problem beyond their ability to pay. I really don't see the difference between what you did with a widgets company and what Universal Health Care does for health care. Jay, I don't see why the taxpayers should have to use the broken business model you had to fix than the proper working one you have now. Do you? Donovan Arnold   From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>; keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves Yes, that’s the decision that the previous business owner made.    (Whose name didn’t sound anything like “Bay Jorden”).   While he thought he was doing good, he was ruining his company (and thus his ability to continue servicing his customers with the product). You can ridicule the specifics all you want, the only relevance that translates to my point is one of human nature.  I believe (and I have experienced the trend) that people care less when they are not directly tied to finances.  Is there anyone on this list that rents out residential property?  Would you say that people take more care of the apartment/house when a security deposit is on the line?  Or would you say that people generally take care of the facilities regardless?   Jay From: Moscow Cares [mailto:moscowcares at moscow.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:26 PM
To: keely emerinemix
Cc: Jay Borden; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves According to Jay Borden: "Turns out the problem had nothing to do with design… it was customers not bothering to read or learn anything about proper use of the widgets, or trying to use the widgets for a completely different purpose altogether.  Tack on a free replacement guarantee, and customers didn’t bother to self-educate… they just let the company “fix the problem” with the warranty." So, what you are telling us, Mr. Borden, is . . . Although the customers clearly violated a product's warranty by " . . . trying to use the widgets for a completely different purpose altogether . . . ", the company honored the warranty and replaced the product. That's right up there with . . . John Smith was going into the widget business.  He would go to the widget manufacturer, load up his truck with widgets (at $10 each), take them back to his store, and sell them at $9 each.  This went on for a couple months.  He was wondering why he was losing money on what he considered to be a sound business venture.  He sought advice on what he should do from a business advisor; let's call him Bay Jorden.  Bay Jorden, after weeks of meticulous research into John Smith's business practices, came up with what he considered a sure-win solution.  He suggested to John Smith that what he needs is a . . . larger truck. Sidebar to Mr. Borden:  Do you know if this guy is selling cars?  I have a friend that can certainly use a new car . . . every year. Seeya later, Moscow. Tom HansenPost Falls, Idaho "If not us, who?If not now, when?" - Unknown
On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:57 PM, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:Turns out the problem had nothing to do with design… it was customers not bothering to read or learn anything about proper use of the widgets, or trying to use the widgets for a completely different purpose altogether.   Tack on a free replacement guarantee, and customers didn’t bother to self-educate… they just let the company “fix the problem” with the warranty.
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