[Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Tue Jan 3 22:27:36 PST 2012

Sunil,

LOL - I don't think what I tell Obama makes any difference to him, but I do
believe that the more he hears from people like me, the more consideration
those views are given.  Currently, I think he's listening to a lot of
power-hungry hawks with a siege mentality from all sides of the aisle, which
is just about everyone in DC now, given the transfer of wealth and power of
the military-industrial-complex, which became infinitely larger with the
increasing privatization of functions, not to mention the Citizens United
decision.

Yes, I do believe there's a good chance your scenario will change with
Obama.  If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time, and it won't be the last .
. . nor do I think it will result in what seems to me to be a doomsday
scenario.

While I think I understand your point, I guess what's puzzling to me is why
you think Ron Paul won't be subject to the same pressures - political &
otherwise - politicians are subject to that cause them to modify their
positions?  Personally, while I was initially excited about some of Paul's
positions, I've unfortunately not been subsequently impressed -- indeed, the
more I've learned, the greater my distaste has become -- and I've no
rational reason to think those qualities would improve were he elected
president.

Further, I think were Paul to actually be elected, the country would be
damaged not only by his crackpot ideas, but I think concerns about due
process and executive powers would pale in comparison to what he'd do to
this great nation with the race to the bottom his faux libertarianism,
isolationism, anti-civil liberties, states' rights nonsense would drive in
certain parts of the country.  Assuming, of course, the unfettered executive
power you seem to be hanging around Obama's neck, which I don't accept.

When I do my weighing of candidates, Paul comes in far below my significant
unhappiness with Obama on some issues; obviously, others have different
criteria & opinions.  Sometimes, better the devil you know, to use an idiom,
than the one you don't, and at this point, that's my inclination.  Today  J

Saundra

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:49 PM
To: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Saundra,

I quite agree that due process has been under attack for some time. No
promised change in this area from our current President.

As for my blessing comment: if you take exception, you likely did understand
my meaning. Now, do you think telling Obama what you think makes any
difference to him? I don't think it does, and voting for him is just that
blessing. If I am wrong on this, can you tell me how?

I think he will continue to:

-grab power that does not belong to him
-use drones/special forces to kill people in countries around the world
-kill US citizens without due process
-imprison people without charges or if charged, allow them due process in
defending themselves.

Do you believe any of this will change? 

Sunil

  _____  

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:26:56 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

First, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

There have been lots of good comments & discussion since I was last on, so
I'll keep my comments brief now.

What say I, Sunil?  Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but
that doesn't mean I'm going to use that clock to tell time.

And, I absolutely agree with the crucial importance of due process.  I
suppose, though, that I'm jaded enough to have been extremely worried about
the erosion of due process for a long time now . . . long before Obama was
elected.  Do you disagree, Sunil?  

I agree with Ron Paul on some issues - including those you mentioned --
that's what made me spend a lot of time learning about him way back when.
For me, though, the issues with which I strongly disagree with him (I think
some of his ideas are actually very, very dangerous) far outweigh the
positions I find appealing; for others, that weighing process comes out
differently.  I am grateful, though, that through his candidacy, important
topics like ending our wars, cutting the defense budget, etc., are being
discussed.

Jay:  I don't think you were on V2020 back then, but the racist crap in Ron
Paul's newsletters came up here back in late 2007/early 2008 - it isn't
something that just came up/out because Paul was gaining traction in the
polls.  Thanks for the rephrasing of Paul's email - it helped me to better
understand the perspective.  LOL - not that I agree with the perspective,
just like I don't agree with you about term limits as a litmus test.  I
continue to argue that for those who are the targets of discrimination,
unequal protection under the law, and invasions of privacy - all of which I
consider to be civil rights issues - and those who are keenly aware of those
issues, they aren't "theatrical" issues at all - they are substantive issues
that really strike at the core of what it means to be Americans, perhaps far
more than something like term limits.

Sunil:  I think you mentioned something about "silent blessings," and I take
exception to that characterization, assuming I correctly understood your
point.  I can't speak for anyone here but myself, but none of our state or
national elected politicians could characterize me as silent - I regularly
write & call all of them letting them know what I think they're doing right
and wrong.  Do they listen to me?  Obviously not, but that doesn't mean I'm
not trying or giving them my silent blessings.

Saundra

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 6:13 PM
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Let's for one moment assume that Paul is a racist. I'm not saying he is,
just assume he is so that issue doesn't need to be discussed for a minute.

Is he wrong on ending our wars? Is he wrong on cutting the defense budget?
Is he wrong about the Patriot Act? Is he wrong about the Executive Branch
seizing powers it should not have?

What say you, Keely, Wayne, Saundra, Tom?

Sunil

  _____  

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:20:01 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: deco at moscow.com
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

He has admitted to putting out an investment newsletter that (as far as I
can tell) was not one of the newsletters that printed the racist comments.
It had all sorts of conspiracy theories about what will happen to people
trying to deal in large amounts of cash, most of which have come true - just
not in the way he thought.  Try taking a large pile of cash through airport
security and see how well that goes.

Another distraction attempt, supposedly a smoking gun, apparently succeeds
in its goals.  Or maybe this is just jumping on the bandwagon, since it is
the Daily Mail, after all.

Paul

On 12/31/2011 04:44 PM, Art Deco wrote: 

See:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078217/Ron-Paul-racist-homophobic-n
ewsletters-Video-taking-credit.html

Scroll down to see the videos of Paul Himself acknowledging the letters,
etc.

All javascript scripts must be allowed in order to see the whole article
including the videos.

w.

From: Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>  

Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:52 PM

To: keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  

Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Does it matter whether or not the allegations are true?  Or do we just call
them out anyway?

Here is an article from CBS News about the newsletters:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345702-503544/ron-paul-disavows-rac
ist-newsletters-under-his-name/

The article contains a quote by Ron Paul on the issue:  

"When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter
was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed
to the product," he said. "For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral
responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my
name."

I'd hate to see the man dragged over the coals for something he might not
have deserved solely because (for example) Jon Huntsman is losing to Ron
Paul in New Hampshire and has staked his campaign on a strong showing there.

I got that last bit from this article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57349712-503544/huntsman-calls-ron-pa
ul-unelectable-because-of-racist-newsletters/

And once again, this is only out there in order to distract us.  These
people could care less if it's even true.  It's just convenient.

Paul

On 12/31/2011 02:44 PM, keely emerinemix wrote: 

I don't think you're defending racism, racist behavior, or even the
wrongness of screaming "He's a racist!" at the slightest apparent
provocation.  That said, I think it's imperative that legitimate indications
that an individual's views on race/gender/class/civil rights/culture are
bigoted be called out, examined, and condemned -- and I believe that the
text of Ron Paul's newsletters are an example.  

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

  _____  

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:41:13 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com

I'm not *defending* racism, I'm commenting on the mere finger-pointing and
accusations being so charged that it's a nuclear weapon in a political
arsenal.  

It's used as a tool for distraction, and hence, theatrics.  (And, unless I
missed the mark, perhaps Mr. Rumelhart's point).

Insert story of "crying wolf".

Jay

From: keely emerinemix [mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
To: Jay Borden; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Jay, I would rue the day that racist behavior and bigoted views become
irrelevant in how we choose our leaders.  There are issues that truly good
people can disagree on; racism, however, is never the view of a "truly good
person," and in fact ought to, by virtue of popular outcry, immediately make
a pariah out of the one who embraces it.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

  _____  

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:17:33 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

I would agree with Paul's statement. but I would word it a bit differently
to deflect some of the immediate hatred I'm sure will be heading my way.

I would say that racism, like abortion and gay marriage are *USED* as
theatrical issues.  

It's interesting as soon as any candidate becomes popular in the polls, some
wild-card story gets tossed about dealing with one of these issues.  Then
it's pressed as long as necessary until the candidate just "goes away".

Rick Perry (again, not a fan) was gaining traction. and then suddenly a
story about "Niggerhead" surfaced.  (He has since nearly imploded on his
own, but that's a separate issue).

Ron Paul gains even more traction this time around in the polls. and
suddenly some story connecting HIM to racisim surfaces.  (I don't recall
anything coming up about this story 4 years ago when he was running for
President).

The topics themselves are extremely important. but the *USE* of these
subjects has become nothing more than positioning and theatrical tools.   

Is your opponent getting too much positive attention?  No problem. just toss
out one of these venomous statements (who cares whether it's true or not.
just phrase it in the form of an "objective question" like Fox News does to
avoid slander/libel). and then sit back and watch the show.

Once some story making any of these accusations hits the public. it's like
kryptonite. and it's used as such. 

Jay

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:03 PM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

In part, Paul wrote:

"Racism, like abortion and gay marriage, are all "theatrical issues".  They
are issues that are tossed out to the American public like scraps to hungry
dogs for them to fight over.  While they are important in and of themselves,
they are really meant to distract us from realizing that we have more power
than we think we do."

Yes, I do suppose it's a lot easier to look at issues like racism, abortion,
and gay marriage as "theatrical issues" when you're not the minority family
unable to rent a home due to racism, and you're not the 17-year-old incest
victim forced to carry your granddaddy's baby or risk death from a backdoor
abortion, and you're not the lesbian at risk of losing custody of your
children born via IVF to your now-deceased 15 year partner because her
family never "approved" of the non-marriage.

Yuppers - I guess for some, it is a lot easier to take the position that
those issues, while "important," really are just "theatrical issues" when
one isn't the target, when one lacks of empathy . . . or when one lacks the
sense God gave a billy goat.

Not in my America.  I agree with Sue's comment, "All rights and even some
privileges should belong to all citizens" and shouldn't depend on where in
the US one lives.

Paul also wrote:

"In my opinion we should concentrate on our civil liberties . . ."

I guess I'm unclear as to how you define "civil liberties," but reproductive
freedom & gay marriage both fit into my definition of the right of privacy,
which is an important US civil liberty.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 9:37 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

I sent this only to Sue, when I meant to send it to the list.

Paul

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

It doesn't negate the evidence.  For what it's worth, he claims that he
didn't write those newsletters that were put out in his name.  Like you've
shown, a person can be compassionate and still be racist.  Being racist is
not a black and white thing, no pun intended.  It's something that can
change over a period of years.  I grew up in a casually racist household,
and had to unlearn much of that over the years, as did my parents.  It's
easy to fall into that trap when you grow up with it and everyone around you
thinks the same thing.  As society changed, so did those around me, and so
did I.

I've said this many times on the Viz:  I'm not looking for Jesus Christ or
Gandhi when I'm looking for a Presidential candidate to vote for.  I want
someone who will perform well in the job.

So the question is, assuming he is some kind of die-hard racist from the
sixties like he's being portrayed, is he going to deny blacks the right to
vote or serve on juries?

Racism, like abortion and gay marriage, are all "theatrical issues".  They
are issues that are tossed out to the American public like scraps to hungry
dogs for them to fight over.  While they are important in and of themselves,
they are really meant to distract us from realizing that we have more power
than we think we do.  In my opinion we should concentrate on our civil
liberties, and in stopping the steady power buildup for the Executive branch
that's been going on for years.  That's far more dangerous to us in the
short term than any of these hot button issues are.  Like Sunil said in
another post, it's all about priorities.

Paul

  _____  

From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

It's a lovely story, Paul. And a powerful instance of Ron Paul's compassion,
but how does it negate the evidence of his racism in those published
reports?  My Texas grandfather was a racist through and through, yet he
performed kind and generous acts to the people he belittled, and to whom he
would have denied the vote, the right to serve on juries (along with women)
and most especially the right to sit up front in public transportation.  

Sue H.       

From: Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>  

Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:18 PM

To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Subject: [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

Here is a video in response to allegations of racism being leveled at Ron
Paul.  It was made by "Revolution PAC", a "superPAC" whose sole purpose is
to get Ron Paul elected. It's entitled "The Compassion of Dr. Ron Paul":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rv0Z5SNrF4

If we're going to attack Ron Paul with allegations of racism on the list, I
thought it might be nice to see what his side has to say.

Paul

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 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
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 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
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