[Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 31 16:49:24 PST 2012
Some comments below.
On 12/31/2012 01:53 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> Scott,
>
> Can you give some specific examples? Or is it just enough to say "This
> is happening"?
>
> Wilson says "But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort
> quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion" to which
> Scott responds "This is happening."
>
> Please support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives,
> liberals, or Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of
> harassment and coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up your
> claim, enough to support the claim that "they" are doing, as opposed
> to a select few. Please give those examples and make sure you have
> enough of them to support this very general, over-the-top claim.
>
> Or maybe Paul could provide evidence backing up this claim: "I would
> like to point out that it's the liberals on this list (or
> 'Intoleristas', if you prefer) that come across as the most dogmatic
> of the two main groups on this list (Intoleristas/liberals vs.
> conservatives/Christ Church members)." Come across as dogmatic to
> whom? And how many liberals come across as dogmatic? Why not name 10
> since there are enough, on your view to make such a general claim.
Are there even 10 regular posters on this list any more? But, in answer
to your questions, they come across as dogmatic to me, personally. Tom
seems to take the cake here, since he constantly posts cartoons from
various outlets that (presumably) match his take on things, and often
posts snide one-liners that refer back to some of his standard concerns
(i.e. something that Doug did, something that Dale did, etc). If I
never see that picture of Doug Wilson smoking a cigarette again with
some pithy slogan attached to it, I'll have moved on to bigger and
better things. So, that's one. You count as a second one, because of
the whole argument we had about whether or not I should be posting
sceptical comments about climate change without letting everyone know
that I am not a credentialed climate scientist. Ted would count as a
third, because he almost always simply posts articles from what he
thinks of as unbiased science-only climate change publications. He
will, occasionally, post something of his opinion on the matter, but
those posts are rare. You could probably also throw Nick in there,
though his posts are very professorial and he doesn't engage in
mud-slinging.
>
> Paul also writes: "It was the Intoleristas that spent a lot of time
> and effort trying to convince me that boycotting businesses run by
> Christ Church members wasn't somehow intolerant of another religion."
> Please be sure to name the Intoleristas that "spent a lot of time and
> effort trying to convince" you to boycott Christ Church businesses? Be
> specific. Name enough of them to justify this slander of a whole group
> of people who happen to disagree with your views.
>
> And of course "No conservative has ever told [you, Paul] that [you]
> shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they? You are
> there mouthpiece.
Believe it or not, but I have almost nothing in common with your average
Christ Church member, or your average staunch conservative. I am not a
Christian, so you can point to that as the major difference between
myself and Christ Church members that is a bar that pretty much
completely separates us. I don't fight against gay marriage, I don't
care what goes on in the bedroom, I don't care much about abortion, etc.
I end up taking their side, though, when I think the Intoleristas are
unfairly persecuting them for their beliefs or because they just don't
like them.
As for who it was that tried to convince me to boycott Christ Church
businesses, I'd have to go through the archives and look. I don't
particularly care enough to do that at the moment, so feel free. I
remember a lot of discussion about how Christ Church was (for lack of a
better term) "invading" Moscow and how any money spent at a Christ
Church-owned business just gets tithed back to the church, so we
shouldn't spend our money there or it would just end up in Doug's
pockets. I remember also being inundated by a list of acts that Christ
Church members have pulled in the past, which I guess was supposed to
show just how evil they were and how we should boycott them because of
that. My arguments about "what if they were Muslims, would we treat
them the same way?" and "why harm individuals that you all seem to think
are being brainwashed?" going exactly nowhere. But it's all out there
in the archives, if anyone cares enough to look for it.
>
> The two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions about
> gun control over the last few weeks, asking some straightforward
> questions and trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. None of the
> questions received any serious answers. There were some sarcastic
> posts by Paul but no serious attempt to engage in discussion.
>
> I've refuted several arguments given by conservatives on this these
> issues but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad arguments
> anyway, without attempting to respond to them. I can't count the times
> that Paul or Gary or others, for instance, have jumped from "let's
> talk about gun control" to "let's ban all firearms."
As Scott mentioned, that's your classic "slippery slope" argument. If
it's OK to ban AR-15s because of this one incident, then when is it not
OK to ban pellet guns because of some other one?
>
> I'm ready to talk and I can talk without insulting anyone. Can either
> of you? Is it even possible for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a
> conversation without insulting someone, or making the kinds of
> unsupported general claims in these two posts? This is not an insult,
> it is a challenge.
I can, occasionally, refrain from resorting to insults, you wart-hogged
faced baboon (<-- Princess Bride reference).
Paul
>
> Joe
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It's got some substance Dr. Gier, you just need to cut through a
> lot of Doug's crap to see some of it:
>
> <Everything goes great in this world of monochrome diversity until
> someone actually disagrees with them in their town>
> This happened.
>
> <They cannot handle disagreement and debate, and so to the extent
> that they have to talk at all they resort immediately to shrill
> invective.>
> This is still happening and you can see it in the threads about
> 'gun control & the NRA' and 'global warming'.
>
> <But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite
> quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion.>
> This is happening.
>
> <This is what has happened in every place in the world where they
> have had their way.>
> This is true. Might makes right. We're lucky to live in a
> country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.
>
> <These people we are up against are as intolerant as it gets.
> While I grant they are not as dangerous as they used to be, they
> are certainly as noisy as they used to be.>
> Intolerance cuts both ways. Atheists can be just as intolerant
> and Fundy religious types. Again, we're lucky to live in a
> country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.
>
> As for your comment that <[Doug's] is a very narrow world indeed>,
> I agree with this as it's quite obvious. Even so, Doug and his
> gullible flock deserve the exact same Constitutional rights and
> protections as everyone else even though they doesn't believe in
> the Constitution and do not believe in an egalitarian society.
>
> <Happy New Year to all beings> I couldn't agree more. :)
>
> -Scott
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:45:59 -0800
> From: ngier at uidaho.edu <mailto:ngier at uidaho.edu>
> To: moscowcares at moscow.com <mailto:moscowcares at moscow.com>
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Thanks for posting this. I had not read it either before now. It
> is vintage Wilson--all rhetoric and sarcasm with little
> substance. Much like his papers for my philosophy classes.
>
> Some time ago a Kirker accused me of being a "Hindu-Lover," or
> something like that. I had to inform him that I have supported
> four Indians for their studies: one Christian who is now
> practicing psychotherapy in Australia, one Hindu for his art
> career, and a man and wife team (both devout Christians). My Hindu
> friends may have good reason to charge that I'm a "Christian-lover."
>
> The husband just finished his Ph.D. at the University of Denver on
> the psychology of being a Christian untouchable. (I thought that
> they did not exist.) It was a brilliant analysis that gained him a
> dissertation prize of $2,000. The wife just graduated summa cum
> laude from the School of Nursing and the University of Houston.
>
> I had a great weekend celebrating with them (Indian food at every
> meal) and a wonderful church service for Telegu-speaking
> Christians. What a change when they switched from the stodgy
> English hymns to the ones in Telegu. The tamborines and tabla
> came out, and I was able sing along because an IT guy projected
> the phonetic equivalents on a screen. A weekend of total
> immersion in Indian culture that will never be forgotten.
>
> Wilson praises that fact that many, but not as many as he implies,
> Latin Americans have converted to Pentecostal Christianity. (The
> highest percentage of them in coffee producing countries is 20
> percent in Gautemala.) As he does with his right hand, he calls
> American Pentecostals less than Christian on the left. (I can
> play the right and left hand game as well as he can.) There is
> absolutely no healing, speaking in tongues, prophesying, and holy
> rolling at Christ Church.
>
> The only foreign travel Doug Wilson did was on U.S. subs. He
> doesn't have a clue what multiculturalism is or what seasoned
> travelers experience and learn in foreign lands. His is a very
> narrow world indeed.
>
> Happy New Year to all beings,
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> A society grows great when old men plant the seeds of trees whose
> shade they know they shall never sit in.
>
> -Greek proverb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> on behalf of Moscow Cares
> Sent: Sun 12/30/2012 5:40 PM
> To: Joe Campbell
> Cc: viz
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares"
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================= List
> services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121231/721e4a6a/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list