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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some comments below.<br>
<br>
On 12/31/2012 01:53 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8y61XZe_QojCptnDctnvJPtdr3N+OtRQ7avD_JnUQ8gJg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Scott,<br>
<br>
Can you give some specific examples? Or is it just enough to say
"This is happening"? <br>
<br>
Wilson says "But they would rather not talk at all, and so they
resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and
coercion" to which Scott responds "This is happening." <br>
<br>
Please support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives,
liberals, or Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of
harassment and coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up
your claim, enough to support the claim that "they" are doing, as
opposed to a select few. Please give those examples and make sure
you have enough of them to support this very general, over-the-top
claim.<br>
<br>
Or maybe Paul could provide evidence backing up this claim: "I
would like to point out that it's the liberals on this list (or
'Intoleristas', if you prefer) that come across as the most
dogmatic of the two main groups on this list
(Intoleristas/liberals vs. conservatives/Christ Church members)."
Come across as dogmatic to whom? And how many liberals come across
as dogmatic? Why not name 10 since there are enough, on your view
to make such a general claim.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Are there even 10 regular posters on this list any more? But, in
answer to your questions, they come across as dogmatic to me,
personally. Tom seems to take the cake here, since he constantly
posts cartoons from various outlets that (presumably) match his take
on things, and often posts snide one-liners that refer back to some
of his standard concerns (i.e. something that Doug did, something
that Dale did, etc). If I never see that picture of Doug Wilson
smoking a cigarette again with some pithy slogan attached to it,
I'll have moved on to bigger and better things. So, that's one.
You count as a second one, because of the whole argument we had
about whether or not I should be posting sceptical comments about
climate change without letting everyone know that I am not a
credentialed climate scientist. Ted would count as a third, because
he almost always simply posts articles from what he thinks of as
unbiased science-only climate change publications. He will,
occasionally, post something of his opinion on the matter, but those
posts are rare. You could probably also throw Nick in there, though
his posts are very professorial and he doesn't engage in
mud-slinging. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8y61XZe_QojCptnDctnvJPtdr3N+OtRQ7avD_JnUQ8gJg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
Paul also writes: "It was the Intoleristas that spent a lot of
time and effort trying to convince me that boycotting businesses
run by Christ Church members wasn't somehow intolerant of another
religion." Please be sure to name the Intoleristas that "spent a
lot of time and effort trying to convince" you to boycott Christ
Church businesses? Be specific. Name enough of them to justify
this slander of a whole group of people who happen to disagree
with your views.<br>
<br>
And of course "No conservative has ever told [you, Paul] that
[you] shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they?
You are there mouthpiece.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Believe it or not, but I have almost nothing in common with your
average Christ Church member, or your average staunch conservative.
I am not a Christian, so you can point to that as the major
difference between myself and Christ Church members that is a bar
that pretty much completely separates us. I don't fight against gay
marriage, I don't care what goes on in the bedroom, I don't care
much about abortion, etc. I end up taking their side, though, when I
think the Intoleristas are unfairly persecuting them for their
beliefs or because they just don't like them.<br>
<br>
As for who it was that tried to convince me to boycott Christ Church
businesses, I'd have to go through the archives and look. I don't
particularly care enough to do that at the moment, so feel free. I
remember a lot of discussion about how Christ Church was (for lack
of a better term) "invading" Moscow and how any money spent at a
Christ Church-owned business just gets tithed back to the church, so
we shouldn't spend our money there or it would just end up in Doug's
pockets. I remember also being inundated by a list of acts that
Christ Church members have pulled in the past, which I guess was
supposed to show just how evil they were and how we should boycott
them because of that. My arguments about "what if they were
Muslims, would we treat them the same way?" and "why harm
individuals that you all seem to think are being brainwashed?" going
exactly nowhere. But it's all out there in the archives, if anyone
cares enough to look for it.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8y61XZe_QojCptnDctnvJPtdr3N+OtRQ7avD_JnUQ8gJg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
The two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions
about gun control over the last few weeks, asking some
straightforward questions and trying to engage in thoughtful
discussion. None of the questions received any serious answers.
There were some sarcastic posts by Paul but no serious attempt to
engage in discussion. <br>
<br>
I've refuted several arguments given by conservatives on this
these issues but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad
arguments anyway, without attempting to respond to them. I can't
count the times that Paul or Gary or others, for instance, have
jumped from "let's talk about gun control" to "let's ban all
firearms."<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
As Scott mentioned, that's your classic "slippery slope" argument.
If it's OK to ban AR-15s because of this one incident, then when is
it not OK to ban pellet guns because of some other one?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8y61XZe_QojCptnDctnvJPtdr3N+OtRQ7avD_JnUQ8gJg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
I'm ready to talk and I can talk without insulting anyone. Can
either of you? Is it even possible for Scott, Paul, or Gary to
have a conversation without insulting someone, or making the kinds
of unsupported general claims in these two posts? This is not an
insult, it is a challenge.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I can, occasionally, refrain from resorting to insults, you
wart-hogged faced baboon (<-- Princess Bride reference).<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8y61XZe_QojCptnDctnvJPtdr3N+OtRQ7avD_JnUQ8gJg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
Joe<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Scott
Dredge <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
It's got some substance Dr. Gier, you just need to cut
through a lot of Doug's crap to see some of it:<br>
<br>
<Everything goes great in this world of monochrome
diversity until someone actually disagrees with them in
their town><br>
This happened.<br>
<br>
<They cannot handle disagreement and debate, and so to
the extent that they have to talk at all they resort
immediately to shrill invective.><br>
This is still happening and you can see it in the threads
about 'gun control & the NRA' and 'global warming'.<br>
<br>
<But they would rather not talk at all, and so they
resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and
coercion.><br>
This is happening.<br>
<br>
<This is what has happened in every place in the world
where they have had their way.><br>
This is true. Might makes right. We're lucky to live in
a country where individual rights are protected against
mob rule.<br>
<br>
<These people we are up against are as intolerant as it
gets. While I grant they are not as dangerous as they used
to be, they are certainly as noisy as they used to be.><br>
Intolerance cuts both ways. Atheists can be just as
intolerant and Fundy religious types. Again, we're lucky
to live in a country where individual rights are protected
against mob rule.<br>
<br>
As for your comment that <font style="font-size:10pt"><[Doug's]
is a very narrow world indeed</font>>, I agree with
this as it's quite obvious. Even so, Doug and his
gullible flock deserve the exact same Constitutional
rights and protections as everyone else even though they
doesn't believe in the Constitution and do not believe in
an egalitarian society.<br>
<br>
<<font style="font-size:10pt">Happy New Year to all
beings> I <font style="font-size:10pt">couldn't
agree more. :)</font></font><br>
<br>
-Scott<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:45:59 -0800<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu" target="_blank">ngier@uidaho.edu</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:moscowcares@moscow.com" target="_blank">moscowcares@moscow.com</a><br>
CC: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<div>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We,
Intoleristas . . .<br>
<br>
<font>Hi Tom,<br>
<br>
Thanks for posting this. I had not read it either
before now. It is vintage Wilson--all rhetoric and
sarcasm with little substance. Much like his papers
for my philosophy classes.<br>
<br>
Some time ago a Kirker accused me of being a
"Hindu-Lover," or something like that. I had to
inform him that I have supported four Indians for
their studies: one Christian who is now practicing
psychotherapy in Australia, one Hindu for his art
career, and a man and wife team (both devout
Christians). My Hindu friends may have good reason
to charge that I'm a "Christian-lover."<br>
<br>
The husband just finished his Ph.D. at the
University of Denver on the psychology of being a
Christian untouchable. (I thought that they did not
exist.) It was a brilliant analysis that gained him
a dissertation prize of $2,000. The wife just
graduated summa cum laude from the School of Nursing
and the University of Houston. <br>
<br>
I had a great weekend celebrating with them (Indian
food at every meal) and a wonderful church service
for Telegu-speaking Christians. What a change when
they switched from the stodgy English hymns to the
ones in Telegu. The tamborines and tabla came out,
and I was able sing along because an IT guy
projected the phonetic equivalents on a screen. A
weekend of total immersion in Indian culture that
will never be forgotten.<br>
<br>
Wilson praises that fact that many, but not as many
as he implies, Latin Americans have converted to
Pentecostal Christianity. (The highest percentage of
them in coffee producing countries is 20 percent in
Gautemala.) As he does with his right hand, he calls
American Pentecostals less than Christian on the
left. (I can play the right and left hand game as
well as he can.) There is absolutely no healing,
speaking in tongues, prophesying, and holy rolling
at Christ Church.<br>
<br>
The only foreign travel Doug Wilson did was on U.S.
subs. He doesn't have a clue what multiculturalism
is or what seasoned travelers experience and learn
in foreign lands. His is a very narrow world
indeed.<br>
<br>
Happy New Year to all beings,<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A society grows great when old men plant the seeds
of trees whose shade they know they shall never sit
in.<br>
<br>
-Greek proverb<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
on behalf of Moscow Cares<br>
Sent: Sun 12/30/2012 5:40 PM<br>
To: Joe Campbell<br>
Cc: viz<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We,
Intoleristas . . .<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>
<br>
"Moscow Cares"<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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