[Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
Nicholas Gier
ngier006 at gmail.com
Mon Dec 31 17:07:50 PST 2012
Hi Paul,
I would like to clarify my status, because you say that I "should
probably be thrown in" with the rest of them, but then you give me a
really big back-handed compliment. So am I in or out?
I don't know how many times I've said that I have no respect for
Christ Church leaders and NSA administrators, but, at the same time, I
have praised NSA students for their talents and hard work. With regard
to Christ Church I've only suggested that Doug's congregants find
another evangelical church with an honest pastor, to wit, Doug's
brother's church just up the hill on 6th Street. The Nazarene Church
would also be a good option for them.
I don't patronize Christ Church businesses, but I've never supported a
general boycott. And I've never denied their free speech rights.
And, furthermore, my criticism of Doug Wilson has nothing to do with
liking or disliking; he is in fact a very likable guy--until you find
out how dishonest he is. Even then he is a charming charlatan.
Finally, you are really naive to think that you could ever become an
honorary member of Christ Church.
Still wanting to know if I'm in or out. Your cavalier attitude bugs me a bit.
Nick
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Some comments below.
>
> On 12/31/2012 01:53 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
> Scott,
>
> Can you give some specific examples? Or is it just enough to say "This is
> happening"?
>
> Wilson says "But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite
> quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion" to which Scott
> responds "This is happening."
>
> Please support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives, liberals, or
> Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of harassment and
> coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up your claim, enough to
> support the claim that "they" are doing, as opposed to a select few. Please
> give those examples and make sure you have enough of them to support this
> very general, over-the-top claim.
>
> Or maybe Paul could provide evidence backing up this claim: "I would like to
> point out that it's the liberals on this list (or 'Intoleristas', if you
> prefer) that come across as the most dogmatic of the two main groups on this
> list (Intoleristas/liberals vs. conservatives/Christ Church members)." Come
> across as dogmatic to whom? And how many liberals come across as dogmatic?
> Why not name 10 since there are enough, on your view to make such a general
> claim.
>
>
> Are there even 10 regular posters on this list any more? But, in answer to
> your questions, they come across as dogmatic to me, personally. Tom seems
> to take the cake here, since he constantly posts cartoons from various
> outlets that (presumably) match his take on things, and often posts snide
> one-liners that refer back to some of his standard concerns (i.e. something
> that Doug did, something that Dale did, etc). If I never see that picture
> of Doug Wilson smoking a cigarette again with some pithy slogan attached to
> it, I'll have moved on to bigger and better things. So, that's one. You
> count as a second one, because of the whole argument we had about whether or
> not I should be posting sceptical comments about climate change without
> letting everyone know that I am not a credentialed climate scientist. Ted
> would count as a third, because he almost always simply posts articles from
> what he thinks of as unbiased science-only climate change publications. He
> will, occasionally, post something of his opinion on the matter, but those
> posts are rare. You could probably also throw Nick in there, though his
> posts are very professorial and he doesn't engage in mud-slinging.
>
>
> Paul also writes: "It was the Intoleristas that spent a lot of time and
> effort trying to convince me that boycotting businesses run by Christ Church
> members wasn't somehow intolerant of another religion." Please be sure to
> name the Intoleristas that "spent a lot of time and effort trying to
> convince" you to boycott Christ Church businesses? Be specific. Name enough
> of them to justify this slander of a whole group of people who happen to
> disagree with your views.
>
> And of course "No conservative has ever told [you, Paul] that [you]
> shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they? You are there
> mouthpiece.
>
>
> Believe it or not, but I have almost nothing in common with your average
> Christ Church member, or your average staunch conservative. I am not a
> Christian, so you can point to that as the major difference between myself
> and Christ Church members that is a bar that pretty much completely
> separates us. I don't fight against gay marriage, I don't care what goes on
> in the bedroom, I don't care much about abortion, etc. I end up taking their
> side, though, when I think the Intoleristas are unfairly persecuting them
> for their beliefs or because they just don't like them.
>
> As for who it was that tried to convince me to boycott Christ Church
> businesses, I'd have to go through the archives and look. I don't
> particularly care enough to do that at the moment, so feel free. I remember
> a lot of discussion about how Christ Church was (for lack of a better term)
> "invading" Moscow and how any money spent at a Christ Church-owned business
> just gets tithed back to the church, so we shouldn't spend our money there
> or it would just end up in Doug's pockets. I remember also being inundated
> by a list of acts that Christ Church members have pulled in the past, which
> I guess was supposed to show just how evil they were and how we should
> boycott them because of that. My arguments about "what if they were
> Muslims, would we treat them the same way?" and "why harm individuals that
> you all seem to think are being brainwashed?" going exactly nowhere. But
> it's all out there in the archives, if anyone cares enough to look for it.
>
>
> The two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions about gun
> control over the last few weeks, asking some straightforward questions and
> trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. None of the questions received
> any serious answers. There were some sarcastic posts by Paul but no serious
> attempt to engage in discussion.
>
> I've refuted several arguments given by conservatives on this these issues
> but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad arguments anyway, without
> attempting to respond to them. I can't count the times that Paul or Gary or
> others, for instance, have jumped from "let's talk about gun control" to
> "let's ban all firearms."
>
>
> As Scott mentioned, that's your classic "slippery slope" argument. If it's
> OK to ban AR-15s because of this one incident, then when is it not OK to
> ban pellet guns because of some other one?
>
>
> I'm ready to talk and I can talk without insulting anyone. Can either of
> you? Is it even possible for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a conversation
> without insulting someone, or making the kinds of unsupported general claims
> in these two posts? This is not an insult, it is a challenge.
>
>
> I can, occasionally, refrain from resorting to insults, you wart-hogged
> faced baboon (<-- Princess Bride reference).
>
> Paul
>
>
> Joe
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's got some substance Dr. Gier, you just need to cut through a lot of
>> Doug's crap to see some of it:
>>
>> <Everything goes great in this world of monochrome diversity until someone
>> actually disagrees with them in their town>
>> This happened.
>>
>> <They cannot handle disagreement and debate, and so to the extent that
>> they have to talk at all they resort immediately to shrill invective.>
>> This is still happening and you can see it in the threads about 'gun
>> control & the NRA' and 'global warming'.
>>
>> <But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite quickly
>> to the instruments of harassment and coercion.>
>> This is happening.
>>
>> <This is what has happened in every place in the world where they have had
>> their way.>
>> This is true. Might makes right. We're lucky to live in a country where
>> individual rights are protected against mob rule.
>>
>> <These people we are up against are as intolerant as it gets. While I
>> grant they are not as dangerous as they used to be, they are certainly as
>> noisy as they used to be.>
>> Intolerance cuts both ways. Atheists can be just as intolerant and Fundy
>> religious types. Again, we're lucky to live in a country where individual
>> rights are protected against mob rule.
>>
>> As for your comment that <[Doug's] is a very narrow world indeed>, I agree
>> with this as it's quite obvious. Even so, Doug and his gullible flock
>> deserve the exact same Constitutional rights and protections as everyone
>> else even though they doesn't believe in the Constitution and do not believe
>> in an egalitarian society.
>>
>> <Happy New Year to all beings> I couldn't agree more. :)
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:45:59 -0800
>> From: ngier at uidaho.edu
>> To: moscowcares at moscow.com
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> Thanks for posting this. I had not read it either before now. It is
>> vintage Wilson--all rhetoric and sarcasm with little substance. Much like
>> his papers for my philosophy classes.
>>
>> Some time ago a Kirker accused me of being a "Hindu-Lover," or something
>> like that. I had to inform him that I have supported four Indians for their
>> studies: one Christian who is now practicing psychotherapy in Australia,
>> one Hindu for his art career, and a man and wife team (both devout
>> Christians). My Hindu friends may have good reason to charge that I'm a
>> "Christian-lover."
>>
>> The husband just finished his Ph.D. at the University of Denver on the
>> psychology of being a Christian untouchable. (I thought that they did not
>> exist.) It was a brilliant analysis that gained him a dissertation prize of
>> $2,000. The wife just graduated summa cum laude from the School of Nursing
>> and the University of Houston.
>>
>> I had a great weekend celebrating with them (Indian food at every meal)
>> and a wonderful church service for Telegu-speaking Christians. What a
>> change when they switched from the stodgy English hymns to the ones in
>> Telegu. The tamborines and tabla came out, and I was able sing along
>> because an IT guy projected the phonetic equivalents on a screen. A weekend
>> of total immersion in Indian culture that will never be forgotten.
>>
>> Wilson praises that fact that many, but not as many as he implies, Latin
>> Americans have converted to Pentecostal Christianity. (The highest
>> percentage of them in coffee producing countries is 20 percent in
>> Gautemala.) As he does with his right hand, he calls American Pentecostals
>> less than Christian on the left. (I can play the right and left hand game
>> as well as he can.) There is absolutely no healing, speaking in tongues,
>> prophesying, and holy rolling at Christ Church.
>>
>> The only foreign travel Doug Wilson did was on U.S. subs. He doesn't have
>> a clue what multiculturalism is or what seasoned travelers experience and
>> learn in foreign lands. His is a very narrow world indeed.
>>
>> Happy New Year to all beings,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> A society grows great when old men plant the seeds of trees whose shade
>> they know they shall never sit in.
>>
>> -Greek proverb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Moscow Cares
>> Sent: Sun 12/30/2012 5:40 PM
>> To: Joe Campbell
>> Cc: viz
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares"
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ======================================================= List services made
>> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list