[Vision2020] Huh?

Sat Dec 22 00:09:54 PST 2012

I don't disagree with many of your comments below.

Perhaps, though, rather than spewing on V2020 about how you object to
Tom's posts while choosing to be silent about things like the
destructiveness of the NRA & its tactics, you should treat Tom's post
the way you do the NRA's propaganda: just ignore them.

Feel free to take him to task if you think he misrepresents something
you've said, but to just generally attack him periodically because you
don't "like" him or his positions or his posts seems petty,
particularly when you choose to remain silent about much bigger fish.
Like the NRA.

While I don't disagree with many of your comments below, I do
completely disagree with your excuse-making for the NRA.  They have
worked for years & years to polarize this country and demonize all
efforts at meaningful & common-sense regulatory reform and the people
advocating the same.  And, I'm beyond sick & tired of their
divisiveness & lies.  NEWS FLASH:  while there are probably some few
who would like to just conveniently cut the Second Amendment out of the
Constitution, the vast, vast majority of us long advocating sensible
reform are NOT in that small crowd, contrary to the NRA propaganda &
sound bites.  Perhaps you've got some magic potion, but my experiences
have taught me that it's virtually impossible to work with people who
have a political -- and perhaps more importantly, a financial --
interest in demonizing reasonable people & who consider it a success to
be divisive & polarizing.  Only in America <shaking my head>

But, whatever floats your boat.

In the distant past, the NRA was a key partner with respect to
reasonable gun regulation.  That changed long ago.  At one point, the
NRA was a *huge* supporter of legislation that banned convicted felons
& violent criminals from gun ownership.  When the organization went
crazy, they threw that principle by the wayside and have, in fact,
supported convicted felons at the state level -- including felons
convicted of violent crimes committed with firearms -- having their
"right" to own guns restored.  As you can imagine, that was absolutely
a bridge to far for my LE family members.  That might be peachy-fine
with you -- it's not to me, and that's the kind of insanity that
America is finally, I hope, sick & tired of.  If you want to join
NRAers in believing that music, movies, and video games are responsible
for these mass-shooters, feel free to keep your head in the sand.

Of course, that approach has been an unmitigated failure to date, but
if that's the approach you think reasonable, keep right on keeping on
doing nothing different.  But, don't expect me and those of us whose
hearts are broken but whose spirits remain strong to adopt the same
dysfunction of doing the same thing over & over & over again but
expecting a different outcome.

"It'd be as ridiculous as social conservatives reaching out to
pro-choicers in an effort toward a common goal of reducing abortions.
Wouldn't it be?"

Scott, you know as well as I that those who are rabidly anti-choice
aren't interested in reducting abortions in ANY way other than
outlawing abortions.  They reject all methods proven to reduce the need
for abortions, including EC.

Just like the NRA rejects EVERYTHING other than the status quo.

One interesting thing came out of their ridiculous press conference
today.  The organization absolutely cannot be considered fiscally
conservative anymore, which if there was any coherence amongst their TP
followers, would be the death knell of the organization.  The
organization calls for increasing taxpayer expenses for what can most
charitably be called an experiment, yet the organization didn't offer
to fund the experiment (at a cost of about $5.4 BILLION per year).
What a shock.

Wayne LaPierre definitely earned the title of "America's Craziest
Gunman" today.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Scott Dredge wrote:

I don't expect more from Tom.  He's stuck in his ways and I've pointed
that out 2 or 3 times before already.  I expect (meaning I foresee) the
NRA to continue operating as a law abiding organization.  I did not
listen to the NRA drivel because I'm not interested in listening to
propaganda, grandstanding, and political posturing.  It doesn't do
anything for me.  I don't personally find the NRA objectionable.  Nor
do I find the ACLU objectionable.

Anyway - my general observation is that bans and restrictions of most
anything (abortion, interracial marriage, sodomy laws, etc.) in this
country tend to only be temporary and that it doesn't take a whole hell
of a lot in terms of finding an appropriate legal challenge to strike
these types of restrictions down.  If legal restrictions / bans is the
plan of attack of changing the status quo, then these laws best be
written in a way that can withstand a vigorous assault on them by both
the NRA as well as constitutional lawyers.  And if that simply can't be
done, then perhaps an approach of actually working with the NRA as an
ally toward a common goal of reducing gun violence might be
considered.  But that's just too far fetched.  It'd be as ridiculous as
social conservatives reaching out to pro-choicers in an effort toward a
common goal of reducing abortions.  Wouldn't it be?

-Scott

  __________________________________________________________________

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; thansen at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:54:12 -0800

Why do you expect more from Tom than you do of the NRA?  Did you listen
to their drivel today?!  Do you not find it more objectionable for a
national lobbying organization like the NRA with actual political power
to "distract from identifying the actual problems and putting forth
realistic solutions" than you for someone to do so on a community
listserve?  If not, why not?  Sad.

Quite frankly, the current NRA deserves to be demonized because they
became part of the problem rather than part of the solution at some
point.  As I've mentioned several times before, most of my family
members -- including those in the military and law enforcement -- were
life-long NRA members until the NRA went completly 'round the bend.
Now, not a single one continues to support the NRA although all have
remained gun enthusiasts.  They continue to lament the destruction of a
formerly great (in their opinions) organization.

If you've not already done so, I highly recommend reading "Ricochet:
Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist" by Richard Feldman.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 09:31 PM, Scott Dredge wrote:

Thanks for demonstrating all by your lonesome, Tom, why absolutely
nothing will change to the status quo.  But by all means, continue
trying and failing to demonize the NRA further especially since there
is no more room for them become more hated by people like you who are
so easily distracted from identifying the actual problems and putting
forth realistic solutions.  Sad.

  __________________________________________________________________

From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:06:01 -0800
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

nra-cho.jpg

NRA+protecting+the+iinnocent.jpg

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
[1]http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

On Dec 21, 2012, at 8:18 PM, "Saundra Lund" <[2]v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
wrote:

It worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?

Confrontation by the armed officer  on campus & the exchange of fire
drove one of the shooters back into the school to continue the
slaughter.  There’s a stellar success!

Oops – but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?

Saundra

From:[3]vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[[4]mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary Crabtree
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM
To: Joe Campbell
Cc: viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not much of
an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school
guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene
investigation, etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified
people in place. Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security
detachments along with retired police officers would be prime
candidates for positions such as this.

All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to emergency
exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be
funneled through one door and past one armed guard.

I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other then the
fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun agenda.

g

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell
<[5]philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

Scott,
There was an Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why
this cannot be implemented. Think of the training required before you
release folks with guns onto school campuses. Then think of the number
of schools, the number of doors to the school that would need to be
guarded, the costs of training and hiring an education militia, and the
number of qualified people available for those positions. This is a bad
idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed. Forget about it
and move on to some actual solution.
Best, Joe

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge
<[6]scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Armed security is something that could be implemented, regulated, and
enforced much more easily than gun control, gun bans, etc.  Armed
security guards could be subjected to more rigorous background and
mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without
having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix.  Somewhat similar
to how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights.  This might be
one of the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to
put on the fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.
_______________________________________________________________________

From: [7]thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59 -0800
To: [8]vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Huh?

"Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy debate
over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids
return to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single
school in America immediately deploy a protection program proven to
work — and by that I mean armed security."

- Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the National Rifle
Association (December 21, 2012)

[9]http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp

------------------------------------

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"

[10]http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

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serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

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References

1. http://www.MoscowCares.com/
2. mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
3. mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
4. mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
5. mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com
6. mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com
7. mailto:thansen at moscow.com
8. mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com
9. http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp
  10. http://www.MoscowCares.com/
  11. http://www.fsr.net/
  12. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  13. http://www.fsr.net/
  14. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  15. http://www.fsr.net/
  16. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  17. http://www.fsr.net/
  18. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  19. http://www.fsr.net/
  20. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  21. http://www.fsr.net/
  22. mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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