[Vision2020] Huh?

Sat Dec 22 00:54:01 PST 2012

Thanks Saundra.  I was wondering if there was some alternative to the NRA that might appeal to some gun owners / enthusiasts and with a quick search found what I thought was a decent article from a couple of days ago.  Some of the user posted comments are rabid (I guess as could be expected).

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/19/viewpointwe-need-a-moderate-pro-gun-alternative-to-the-nra/

-Scott

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 00:09:54 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

I don't disagree with many of your comments below.

Perhaps, though, rather than spewing on V2020 about how you object to Tom's posts while choosing to be silent about things like the destructiveness of the NRA & its tactics, you should treat Tom's post the way you do the NRA's propaganda:  just ignore them.

Feel free to take him to task if you think he misrepresents something you've said, but to just generally attack him periodically because you don't "like" him or his positions or his posts seems petty, particularly when you choose to remain silent about much bigger fish.  Like the NRA.

While I don't disagree with many of your comments below, I do completely disagree with your excuse-making for the NRA.  They have worked for years & years to polarize this country and demonize all efforts at meaningful & common-sense regulatory reform and the people advocating the same.  And, I'm beyond sick & tired of their divisiveness & lies.  NEWS FLASH:  while there are probably some few who would like to just conveniently cut the Second Amendment out of the Constitution, the vast, vast majority of us long advocating sensible reform are NOT in that small crowd, contrary to the NRA propaganda & sound bites.  Perhaps you've got some magic potion, but my experiences have taught me that it's virtually impossible to work with people who have a political -- and perhaps more importantly, a financial -- interest in demonizing reasonable people & who consider it a success to be divisive & polarizing.  Only in America <shaking my head>

But, whatever floats your boat.

In the distant past, the NRA was a key partner with respect to reasonable gun regulation.  That changed long ago.  At one point, the NRA was a *huge* supporter of legislation that banned convicted felons & violent criminals from gun ownership.  When the organization went crazy, they threw that principle by the wayside and have, in fact, supported convicted felons at the state level -- including felons convicted of violent crimes committed with firearms -- having their "right" to own guns restored.  As you can imagine, that was absolutely a bridge to far for my LE family members.  That might be peachy-fine with you -- it's not to me, and that's the kind of insanity that America is finally, I hope, sick & tired of.  If you want to join NRAers in believing that music, movies, and video games are responsible for these mass-shooters, feel free to keep your head in the sand.

Of course, that approach has been an unmitigated failure to date, but if that's the approach you think reasonable, keep right on keeping on doing nothing different.  But, don't expect me and those of us whose hearts are broken but whose spirits remain strong to adopt the same dysfunction of doing the same thing over & over & over again but expecting a different outcome.

"It'd be as ridiculous as social conservatives reaching out to pro-choicers in an effort toward a common goal of reducing abortions.  Wouldn't it be?"

Scott, you know as well as I that those who are rabidly anti-choice aren't interested in reducting abortions in ANY way other than outlawing abortions.  They reject all methods proven to reduce the need for abortions, including EC.

Just like the NRA rejects EVERYTHING other than the status quo.

One interesting thing came out of their ridiculous press conference today.  The organization absolutely cannot be considered fiscally conservative anymore, which if there was any coherence amongst their TP followers, would be the death knell of the organization.  The organization calls for increasing taxpayer expenses for what can most charitably be called an experiment, yet the organization didn't offer to fund the experiment (at a cost of about $5.4 BILLION per year).  What a shock.

Wayne LaPierre definitely earned the title of "America's Craziest Gunman" today.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Scott Dredge wrote:

I don't expect more from Tom.  He's stuck in his ways and I've pointed that out 2 or 3 times before already.  I expect (meaning I foresee) the NRA to continue operating as a law abiding organization.  I did not listen to the NRA drivel because I'm not interested in listening to propaganda, grandstanding, and political posturing.  It doesn't do anything for me.  I don't personally find the NRA objectionable.  Nor do I find the ACLU objectionable.

Anyway - my general observation is that bans and restrictions of most anything (abortion, interracial marriage, sodomy laws, etc.) in this country tend to only be temporary and that it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot in terms of finding an appropriate legal challenge to strike these types of restrictions down.  If legal restrictions / bans is the plan of attack of changing the status quo, then these laws best be written in a way that can withstand a vigorous assault on them by both the NRA as well as constitutional lawyers.  And if that simply can't be done, then perhaps an approach of actually working with the NRA as an ally toward a common goal of reducing gun violence might be considered.  But that's just too far fetched.  It'd be as ridiculous as social conservatives reaching out to pro-choicers in an effort toward a common goal of reducing abortions.  Wouldn't it be?

-Scott

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; thansen at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:54:12 -0800

Why do you expect more from Tom than you do of the NRA?  Did you listen to their drivel today?!  Do you not find it more objectionable for a national lobbying organization like the NRA with actual political power to "distract from identifying the actual problems and putting forth realistic solutions" than you for someone to do so on a community listserve?  If not, why not?  Sad.

Quite frankly, the current NRA deserves to be demonized because they became part of the problem rather than part of the solution at some point.  As I've mentioned several times before, most of my family members -- including those in the military and law enforcement -- were life-long NRA members until the NRA went completly 'round the bend.  Now, not a single one continues to support the NRA although all have remained gun enthusiasts.  They continue to lament the destruction of a formerly great (in their opinions) organization.

If you've not already done so, I highly recommend reading "Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist" by Richard Feldman.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 09:31 PM, Scott Dredge wrote:

Thanks for demonstrating all by your lonesome, Tom, why absolutely nothing will change to the status quo.  But by all means, continue trying and failing to demonize the NRA further especially since there is no more room for them become more hated by people like you who are so easily distracted from identifying the actual problems and putting forth realistic solutions.  Sad.

From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:06:01 -0800
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

On Dec 21, 2012, at 8:18 PM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> wrote:
It worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?
Confrontation by the armed officer  on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the shooters back into the school to continue the slaughter.  There’s a stellar success!
Oops – but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?

Saundra
From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary CrabtreeSent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM
To: Joe Campbell
Cc: viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not much of an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene investigation, etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified people in place. Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security detachments along with retired police officers would be prime candidates for positions such as this.

All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to emergency exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be funneled through one door and past one armed guard.

I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other then the fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun agenda.

g

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:Scott,There was an Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why this cannot be implemented. Think of the training required before you release folks with guns onto school campuses. Then think of the number of schools, the number of doors to the school that would need to be guarded, the costs of training and hiring an education militia, and the number of qualified people available for those positions. This is a bad idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed. Forget about it and move on to some actual solution.
Best, Joe
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:Armed security is something that could be implemented, regulated, and enforced much more easily than gun control, gun bans, etc.  Armed security guards could be subjected to more rigorous background and mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix.  Somewhat similar to how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights.  This might be one of the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to put on the fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.

From: thansen at moscow.comDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59 -0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Huh?

"Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy debate over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids return to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I mean armed security."

- Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association (December 21, 2012)

http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp

------------------------------------
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

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