[Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws

[Art Deco]

It's just not the belief that one's life is in immediate jeopardy that
provides the basis for the legitimate use of lethal force, but also the
belief in the immediate threat of grievous bodily harm.

How one reacts after using lethal force depends on the circumstances.  Was
it avoidable in some reasonable way or not?  Was the threat being made by a
mentally composed person or someone under the influence?  Etc.

I am a believer in the right of self defense.  I have never used lethal
force, but were I in a position where it was the most reasonable option to
use it avoid death or grievous bodily harm, I would not hesitate.  It's
unfortunate that circumstances arise where lethal force is the most
reasonable option, but as most know, life is not a bowl of cherries -- all
sorts of unfortunate things happen along the way.

w.


On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Gary Crabtree
<moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>wrote:

> "...I don't want to go through life
>
> having killed someone, even in self-defense. It is easier to say
> you'll get over it than it is to get over it."
>
> I agree. But on the other hand, it's easier to get over having had to
> utilize your legitamate right to self defense than it is to get over being
> deceased.
>
> g
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Overall I agree with much of what you say but (a) if there are folks
>> in prison that shouldn't be there, then there are likely criminals
>> running free, and (b) personally I don't want to go through life
>> having killed someone, even in self-defense. It is easier to say
>> you'll get over it than it is to get over it.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> wrote:
>> > The CWP makes no difference in the equation. If the situation is such
>> that
>> > you feel you must defend your life, you do and let the chips fall where
>> they
>> > may. What kind of idiot decides that it would be better to die then
>> have to
>> > give the police an explanation that seems tough to swallow.
>> >
>> > I'm not so sure that people get away with murder "all the time." I'm
>> fairly
>> > sure that there are people in prison in error. Life doesn't come with
>> > guarantees. This would have to be the genesis of the trite old saw "
>> better
>> > to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> > From: Dan Carscallen
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 8:17 PM
>> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>> >
>> > Not sure if I'm creating another plot hole or what . . .
>> >
>> > You fired a warning shot and your attacker continued. Perhaps he was on
>> bath
>> > salts, or suffered from some mental malady, or was deaf(?)
>> >
>> > I would think your defense attorney would look into the history of your
>> > "attacker", but your thought experiment is quite the sticky wicket
>> >
>> > DC
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2012, at 20:08, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’ll try to cover all the plot holes in my thought experiment in order
>> to
>> > focus on the central issue: In the poorly-lit street I see a flash of
>> light
>> > on an object the perp is carrying, and I think it’s a knife. Only later
>> I
>> > learn that it is a flash of light off a reflective wrist band or jewelry
>> > ornament. I fire the second shot (the first is a warning shot),  at
>> fairly
>> > close range, after a brief struggle. There are no witnesses so it
>> doesn’t
>> > matter if I say that, yes, I yelled a lot. Let’s say I did but it only
>> seems
>> > to enrage the attacker. Let’s say the perp appears intoxicated or
>> insane and
>> > is making threatening remarks, frightening me. No witnesses, remember.
>>  I’m
>> > the only one seeing and hearing her/him so there is no way to prove that
>> > there were verbal threats or warnings. I might have escaped without
>> firing,
>> > and considered doing so, but it was a fast-moving situation,  my escape
>> > route appeared blocked by a nearby delivery van and some stacked
>> > construction materials. There was indeed my first warning shot, but the
>> perp
>> > did not cease his/her advance. Through a fluke of luck the shoves and
>> > punches I received did not leave a lasting mark on my person or
>> clothing.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It’s the ability to prove self-defense that I’m exploring, not
>> principally
>> > the gun thing per se. The item of self-defense could have been a knife
>> or
>> > just my bare hands I suppose. The point I’m hinting at is that maybe,
>> one
>> > had better have some good witnesses when defending oneself in certain
>> > situations. However, a further implication is that if I had only a
>> knife or
>> > my bare hands for self-defense, I might have been more likely to
>> attempt to
>> > run away or continue fighting off the attacker.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:27 PM
>> > To: Robert Dickow
>> > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
>> > Subject: [Spam 3.90] Re: [Vision2020] Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You say that the perp attacked you.  How did (s)he attack you?  Was it
>> > sufficient to leave scars on your body?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > What was it about the perp that made you feel threatened, other than
>> mere
>> > surprise?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Could you have escaped the situation without having to use a weapon?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Under what circumstances was the fatal round fired? Accidental due to
>> close
>> > physical interaction?  Could you have fired a warning shot or warned the
>> > perp, "Hey sh*thead!  I have a gun and I WILL use it unless you leave
>> > RIGHT-FU*KING NOW!"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Moscow Cares"
>> >
>> > http://www.MoscowCares.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom Hansen, CPL  (Commie Pinko Liberal)
>> >
>> > Moscow, Idaho
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2012, at 7:12 PM, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I am being serious now…
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This question has no doubt been addressed by various experts, but I just
>> > thought up a situation that poses a question in my mind about ethics and
>> > legal practicalities:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Let’s say, for the sake of this thought experiment, that I own a handgun
>> > that I carry, concealed, for my personal self defense.  I find myself
>> alone
>> > on a dark city street and I am surprise attacked by a lone individual
>> (whom
>> > I perceive a mugger), who ignores my shouts and warnings. My shouts are
>> not
>> > noticed by anyone in the neighborhood. I shoot and kill the person, who
>> I
>> > feel is threatening my life. There are no witnesses or recorded phone
>> calls
>> > (unlike the Trayvon Martin shooting). I have not suffered any visible
>> > injuries. How do I prove that I shot in self-defense?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Offhand I don’t see how I can ‘prove’ self-defense.  I can only claim
>> self
>> > defense. Why couldn’t the county prosecutor say ‘BS’ and have me put me
>> away
>> > for life? Is my thought experiment a situation in which I really can’t,
>> or
>> > should not, use the gun? Or, from another line of thinking, if I can
>> simply
>> > declare self-defense in a case like this, I could ‘legally’ go out and
>> shoot
>> > an innocent pedestrian on a whim, and I could get away with murder.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >               http://www.fsr.net
>> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >               http://www.fsr.net
>> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >                http://www.fsr.net
>> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >                http://www.fsr.net
>> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>



-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121213/4f0fb1cc/attachment.html>