[Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Thu Dec 13 12:44:02 PST 2012


Not so clear! For one thing, death is inevitable; everyone dies but
not everyone kills. And if you're a Christian, doesn't it say "Thou
shall not kill" instead of "Thou shall not murder"? In that case, I
guess you'll have a whole eternity of damnation to get over it!

Hopefully you realize my tongue is a bit in my cheek in saying both
points; your point is appreciated. Joe

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Gary Crabtree
<moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> "...I don't want to go through life
> having killed someone, even in self-defense. It is easier to say
> you'll get over it than it is to get over it."
>
> I agree. But on the other hand, it's easier to get over having had to
> utilize your legitamate right to self defense than it is to get over being
> deceased.
>
> g
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Overall I agree with much of what you say but (a) if there are folks
>> in prison that shouldn't be there, then there are likely criminals
>> running free, and (b) personally I don't want to go through life
>> having killed someone, even in self-defense. It is easier to say
>> you'll get over it than it is to get over it.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> wrote:
>> > The CWP makes no difference in the equation. If the situation is such
>> > that
>> > you feel you must defend your life, you do and let the chips fall where
>> > they
>> > may. What kind of idiot decides that it would be better to die then have
>> > to
>> > give the police an explanation that seems tough to swallow.
>> >
>> > I'm not so sure that people get away with murder "all the time." I'm
>> > fairly
>> > sure that there are people in prison in error. Life doesn't come with
>> > guarantees. This would have to be the genesis of the trite old saw "
>> > better
>> > to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> > From: Dan Carscallen
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 8:17 PM
>> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>> >
>> > Not sure if I'm creating another plot hole or what . . .
>> >
>> > You fired a warning shot and your attacker continued. Perhaps he was on
>> > bath
>> > salts, or suffered from some mental malady, or was deaf(?)
>> >
>> > I would think your defense attorney would look into the history of your
>> > "attacker", but your thought experiment is quite the sticky wicket
>> >
>> > DC
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2012, at 20:08, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’ll try to cover all the plot holes in my thought experiment in order
>> > to
>> > focus on the central issue: In the poorly-lit street I see a flash of
>> > light
>> > on an object the perp is carrying, and I think it’s a knife. Only later
>> > I
>> > learn that it is a flash of light off a reflective wrist band or jewelry
>> > ornament. I fire the second shot (the first is a warning shot),  at
>> > fairly
>> > close range, after a brief struggle. There are no witnesses so it
>> > doesn’t
>> > matter if I say that, yes, I yelled a lot. Let’s say I did but it only
>> > seems
>> > to enrage the attacker. Let’s say the perp appears intoxicated or insane
>> > and
>> > is making threatening remarks, frightening me. No witnesses, remember.
>> > I’m
>> > the only one seeing and hearing her/him so there is no way to prove that
>> > there were verbal threats or warnings. I might have escaped without
>> > firing,
>> > and considered doing so, but it was a fast-moving situation,  my escape
>> > route appeared blocked by a nearby delivery van and some stacked
>> > construction materials. There was indeed my first warning shot, but the
>> > perp
>> > did not cease his/her advance. Through a fluke of luck the shoves and
>> > punches I received did not leave a lasting mark on my person or
>> > clothing.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It’s the ability to prove self-defense that I’m exploring, not
>> > principally
>> > the gun thing per se. The item of self-defense could have been a knife
>> > or
>> > just my bare hands I suppose. The point I’m hinting at is that maybe,
>> > one
>> > had better have some good witnesses when defending oneself in certain
>> > situations. However, a further implication is that if I had only a knife
>> > or
>> > my bare hands for self-defense, I might have been more likely to attempt
>> > to
>> > run away or continue fighting off the attacker.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:27 PM
>> > To: Robert Dickow
>> > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
>> > Subject: [Spam 3.90] Re: [Vision2020] Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You say that the perp attacked you.  How did (s)he attack you?  Was it
>> > sufficient to leave scars on your body?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > What was it about the perp that made you feel threatened, other than
>> > mere
>> > surprise?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Could you have escaped the situation without having to use a weapon?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Under what circumstances was the fatal round fired? Accidental due to
>> > close
>> > physical interaction?  Could you have fired a warning shot or warned the
>> > perp, "Hey sh*thead!  I have a gun and I WILL use it unless you leave
>> > RIGHT-FU*KING NOW!"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Moscow Cares"
>> >
>> > http://www.MoscowCares.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom Hansen, CPL  (Commie Pinko Liberal)
>> >
>> > Moscow, Idaho
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2012, at 7:12 PM, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I am being serious now…
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This question has no doubt been addressed by various experts, but I just
>> > thought up a situation that poses a question in my mind about ethics and
>> > legal practicalities:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Let’s say, for the sake of this thought experiment, that I own a handgun
>> > that I carry, concealed, for my personal self defense.  I find myself
>> > alone
>> > on a dark city street and I am surprise attacked by a lone individual
>> > (whom
>> > I perceive a mugger), who ignores my shouts and warnings. My shouts are
>> > not
>> > noticed by anyone in the neighborhood. I shoot and kill the person, who
>> > I
>> > feel is threatening my life. There are no witnesses or recorded phone
>> > calls
>> > (unlike the Trayvon Martin shooting). I have not suffered any visible
>> > injuries. How do I prove that I shot in self-defense?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Offhand I don’t see how I can ‘prove’ self-defense.  I can only claim
>> > self
>> > defense. Why couldn’t the county prosecutor say ‘BS’ and have me put me
>> > away
>> > for life? Is my thought experiment a situation in which I really can’t,
>> > or
>> > should not, use the gun? Or, from another line of thinking, if I can
>> > simply
>> > declare self-defense in a case like this, I could ‘legally’ go out and
>> > shoot
>> > an innocent pedestrian on a whim, and I could get away with murder.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>



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