[Vision2020] How Many More . . .

Sat Aug 18 15:28:47 PDT 2012

I find most of this discussion comical - especially the zinger from the oft sophomoric Tom Hansen accusing Roger and Gary of degenerating to a new low, as if anyone could go lower than the petty snipes of Tom Hansen. :)  It is the stuff of Rod Serling's Twilight Zone.

I'm against gun control.  I think it's a waste of time and effort.  Then again, I'm against most bans and restrictions so you righties who clamor for smaller government and less government intrusion kinda, sorta lost a bunch of credibility when you started circulating and passing state constitutional amendments in the very recent past banning / restricting already existing rights, benefits, and protections for same gender couples and their children.  That's a mighty 'Christian' thing of a lot of you to stick it to the kids who, through no fault of their own, have two mommies or two daddies.  And if you believe that manufacturers and distributors of 'legal products' that can cause death should not be restricted or prosecuted or held liable, then I'm guessing you can't explain the complete 180 degree turn around when that product happens to be something legal like RU-486 that you do want restricted / banned?  So it seems to me like you self described 'conservatives', and self described 'liberals', and even some of you self identified 'Christians' are just full of a heck of a lot of contradictions that you're unable to logically defend in a coherent manner without completely annihilating something else that you promote.  Unless you're like Doug Wilson and you can just go to your Biblical lookup tables and just point to whatever passage justifies your own personal agenda and claim it as the absolute 'word of God'.

From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 14:11:48 -0700
To: jampot at roadrunner.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How Many More . . .

I never EVER stated, suggested, or implied that "the compilation of lists would be a swell idea".  I simply stated that I do no question their existence.
You really ought to go back on your meds, gc.
That said, and the fact that this interaction is degenerating to a new low (even for Roger Falen and Gary Crabtree), I am signing off of this thread.
Have fun, boyz.

Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 
On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:02 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

Hey it's you and hanson that are suggesting that the 
compilation of lists would be a swell idea, not I. I assure you I am quite 
relaxed.

Since you bring up "administrative burden," what kind of burden is it likely to be to 
locate, record, and keep track of the approximately 270 million 
privately held firearms currently circulating in the United States, many of 
which are going to be held by otherwise law abiding private citizens who 
are likely to be more than a little underwhelmed with your firearms 
and the IRS scheme?

The next question of course would be should this highly 
dubious exercise in overreach be achieved, what next? How will it prevent the 
tragedies we have recently witnessed? As far as the media has been able to 
ascertain the firearms used were purchased legally, at least from the sellers 
perspective. (Lying on the 4473 form regarding ones mental health is quite 
beyond their control) What good would it do for an IRS agent to have been 
aware of the transaction? Do you believe that a well timed audit would have 
saved the day?

Your plan would create a great deal more bureaucracy, 
waste significant amounts of taxpayer dollars, turn many law abiding gun owners 
into criminals at the stroke of a pen and do next to nothing to solve the 
perceived problem.

Liberal do something (especially something ineffective) 
disease run amok.

g

From: Kenneth Marcy 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:09 PM
To: Moscow Vision2020 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How Many More . . .

On 8/18/2012 9:31 AM, Gary Crabtree wrote:

  Since you are absolutely convinced that 
  detailed lists are totally benign, let's make available a roster of 
  everyone who has ever sought or been given treatment for any 
  and every mental health condition? After all, it's all for the greater 
  good and what could possibly go wrong? Why track a tool when you can 
  track the potential user?

  Heck this detailed list idea is so good 
  why not expand it to organizations, books, movies, and music. Absolutely 
  anything that might even hint at inspiring violence. I'm sure that a community 
  conscious individual such as your self couldn't possibly object to a little 
  bit of scrutiny in exchange for a small measure of potential safety, 
  right?
Computer science types are watchful that 
they don't trap themselves into attempting to compute something that would take 
very long periods of time (longer than a human lifetime, for example) to 
compute. Sometimes a different algorithm can render a problem more 
computationally tractable, and sometimes not.

Analogously, making the 
lists you are suggesting here would be an administrative burden not unlike 
attempting to calculate every facet of everything. Practically, i.e., within 
reasonable time frames, not to mention with any sort of logical clarity, it just 
can not be accomplished.

Let's take, for example, your phrase "absolutely 
anything that might even hint at inspiring violence." OK, let's consider just a 
triple of tomes: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an, and those 
who read and adhere to one or more of them in some fashion. The administrative 
result is a list of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, three groups of people about 
whom it is true to suggest that some among them have been inspired to violence 
by what they read in one or more of those volumes.

What are we to do with 
such a list of people? Declare them all mentally ill, and then refer them for 
psychiatric treatment? Oh, by the way, how is society's supply of secular 
humanist psychiatrists and religious cult deprogrammers? Oops. Analogous to the 
electronically ancient computer with one processor operating at a slow clock 
speed, the process for accomplishing all that work would take an unacceptably 
long time, and since we know that in advance of starting such a process, we 
won't start the process.

These practical considerations, plus the rights 
of people to pursue the happiness of their own brands of insanity in the privacy 
of their own homes, or places of worship, such as movie houses screening Disney 
flicks, opera houses presenting Wagnerian almost anything, or book clubs 
discussing romance novels with pink covers and numbers on their spines, means 
that it is highly unlikely that anytime soon anyone is going to attempt to pry a 
Bible from anyone else's cold dead fingers. So, relax.

Ken

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=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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