[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 11 23:45:32 PDT 2012
Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC. Some links to news
stories about it:
http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
tl;dr version: A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out
of the trunk of his car during church services. He warns the
congregation, and locks the doors. The man kicks in a side door and is
disarmed and wrestled to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint
by the guy with the concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive.
The shotgun the man had brought was loaded, and he claims he was going
to kidnap the pastor.
I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy
hadn't acted quickly, I doubt anyone does. That's the trouble with this
sort of request as Gary alluded to. We don't know that this would have
been a tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
Paul
On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora
> type situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths;
> can't be sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul
> was talking about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree
> killing. Any examples of someone preventing that from happening with a
> handgun? Haven't heard or seen of one yet.
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
> <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>> wrote:
>
>> So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can
>> you know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and
>> not quit till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did
>> you acquire this awesome ability to determine what might and might
>> not have been?
>> g
>>
>> *From:* Joe Campbell <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
>> *To:* Gary Crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> *Cc:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com> ;
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com%3E>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>> Promoting . . .
>>
>> Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like
>> Aurora is either true or false. If true, when and where?
>>
>> The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
>> subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by
>> any means.
>>
>> I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
>> government -- and it's everyone for himself.
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
>> <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of
>>> concealed is keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods
>>> creation that you're healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by
>>> some to be sure.
>>> A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good
>>> effect:
>>> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
>>> To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
>>> illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a
>>> different path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are
>>> wounded and taken to jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding
>>> their own business in a internet café are senselessly
>>> murdered...film at 11:00
>>> g
>>>
>>> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
>>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>> Promoting . . .
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire. Firing in
>>> the middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would
>>> surely be asking for trouble. However, it's my understanding that
>>> for a while during the shooting the shooter had complete control of
>>> the situation. Anyone trying to leave was shot. Many people were
>>> playing dead in the hopes they would be passed over. Firing on the
>>> shooter, even if he's in body armor, might distract him enough that
>>> some people might have made it to the exits. Body armor doesn't
>>> make you invincible, depending on the armor and the caliber of the
>>> weapon used you might still have made an impact, since he'd still be
>>> hit by the blunt force of the bullet. In this situation, though,
>>> you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he
>>> was so well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin
>>> protector, and a helmet with a visor). Who knows? Telling a loved
>>> one "when I start shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might
>>> have worked.
>>>
>>> Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved
>>> such a heavily armored assailant. In fact, quite a few of them have
>>> taken place in areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in
>>> schools or on university campuses. Harris and Kliebold wore
>>> T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine. A student who had happened
>>> to have smuggled a gun into the school might have been able to have
>>> had a real impact on that event.
>>>
>>> An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion. Apparently, that
>>> opinion is not shared on this list.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>>> It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones
>>>> with a hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a
>>>> person with a automatic weapon shielded by body armor. How many
>>>> more victims would be added to the final body count?
>>>>
>>>> Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
>>>>
>>>> w.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
>>>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tom,
>>>> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean
>>>> come on, support your community why don't you. :)
>>>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
>>>> *To:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>>>> *Cc:* "<vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>"
>>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>> Promoting . . .
>>>>
>>>> You may very well be right, Sunil.
>>>>
>>>> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service. Trust
>>>> those around you, but keep your powder dry.
>>>>
>>>> I saw the poster at Tri-State. And, as I've said before, this
>>>> is the first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow.
>>>> I checked a few things out, such as its website, phone number,
>>>> etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed something to pass the time while
>>>> my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
>>>>
>>>> The more I dug, the more red flags I found. The more red flags
>>>> I found, the more I dug. I have so many info sources,
>>>> concerning the NFT Academy, bookmarked for reference I am
>>>> thinking of discarding half of 'em.
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
>>>> The college students are not very active in local elections
>>>> (thank goodness!)."
>>>>
>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon
>>>>> permit; who knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a
>>>>> big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>
>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>> Promoting . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years. The
>>>>> is the FIRST time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly
>>>>> advertised in town. Couple that up with the increasing
>>>>> paranoia, as a result of the recent instances in Aurora
>>>>> (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a
>>>>> right to be curious.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since
>>>>> April 2012 and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012
>>>>> (TWO MONTHS AGO).
>>>>>
>>>>> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
>>>>> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its
>>>>> website, but let's see where this thread leads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>
>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
>>>>> The college students are not very active in local elections
>>>>> (thank goodness!)."
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>
>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting
>>>>> . . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>
>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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