[Vision2020] Godwin's Rule
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri May 13 12:43:58 PDT 2011
Well, everyone is harping on me for saying that whoever first invokes
the Nazis loses the argument. That's my own take on things. What the
law actually states is: "As an online discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1". I
tend to think that the first side that does this loses the argument, but
that's not official Godwin's Law canon. I forget that you can't just
speak colloquially on this list.
I would like to stress that it's a good way of determining when the
discussion has jumped the shark. I mean, look at this very topic.
We're talking about permits that are routinely handed out for large
loads being moved over state highways. It probably happens multiple
times per day throughout the state. Yet it's turned into some kind of
"screw big oil" and "damn those republicans" rants. Granted these loads
are larger in number and size, but the basics of the permit process are
setup to handle that.
Please take note, because I know that the rules of formal logic and
discourse are important to you people, that I am not actually opposing
your efforts. In my opinion, since the test load was such a snafu, the
ITD should look more closely at their permit granting process. When
power outages to multiple towns and hour-long delays happen on their
test run, the ITD should think about denying any further permits until
these problems have been shown to have been resolved. In contrast, if
the test load had gone through swimmingly I would be arguing that they
have done everything they were required to do and should not be denied
access to public highways just because people don't like them.
I just don't think that trying to deny permits is the right venue to
stop big oil or whatever your goals actually are.
Paul
P.S. On other forums, whether the subject is politics, religion,
conspiracy theories, global climate change, aliens, jpop music,
programming languages or what have you when Godwin's Law is invoked
people tend to work on reigning in their rhetoric because they realize
they got a little worked up or whatever. That's the power of Godwin's
Law. I'm curious if that will happen here.
On 05/13/2011 11:11 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule
> by showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at
> rational argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been
> basically futile.]
> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the
> argument."
> Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of
> less than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.
> Wrong.
> When A is compared to B, that means there is at least *one* property P
> in which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples are like
> rotten eggs. The similar property between rotten apples and rotten
> eggs is that both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.
> One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions
> from the highest level without consultation or discussion with those
> whom the decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by
> Governor Otter in the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to
> Nazis would be correctly applied.
> Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P
> in which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be
> other problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the
> comparison property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.
> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who
> continually boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free
> expression use Godwin like tactics to attempt to quell meaningful
> discussion and dissent.
> I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book
> /Logic/ by Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired. It can
> be downloaded in parts from the web.
> Let me repeat: *Nazis are not the problem we are facing*:
> Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then
> dictates the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters
> where there are *two major areas* of great public impact and concern
> and where the secret deal prevented serious discussion and consideration:
> *1.* Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by
> the decision in many, many ways.
> *2.* Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some
> of them fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy
> given the majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China,
> no friend of the environment, public health, or of the sense of
> fairness in international trade, patent, or currency regulations.
> ....
> I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public
> officials not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and
> the guts to oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of
> concern expressed above, but also because of the public policy
> considerations of allowing citizens to be the roadkill of a secret
> steamrolling secret deal about which they were prevented from
> participating in an open, meaningful discussion and debate over
> matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party of
> freedom and respect for the individual.
> Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any
> indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.
>
> Wayne A. Fox
> 1009 Karen Lane
> PO Box 9421
> Moscow, ID 83843
> waf at moscow.com <mailto:waf at moscow.com>
> 208 882-7975
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joe Campbell <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>
> Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules
> began with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by
> folks like Boole and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to
> the rule -- which was made by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is
> itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw folks away from the
> issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or point is no
> better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first place --
> unless the person is in fact a Nazi!
>
> I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart
> <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if you
> think it's stupid.
>
> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself.
> Just trying to impart a little perspective. Use at your own
> risk. That's why Godwin's Law is remarkably effective,
> actually. It's a good indicator that rationality has left the
> building and that further debate is only useful for the lulz.
>
> Paul
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>>
> *To:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
> *Cc:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>; Saundra Lund
> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>>;
> Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in
> Moscow
>
> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no
> comparison.
>
> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares
> the other side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid.
> Why not just make the winner the person with the best haircut?
> The person with the worst argument loses the debate.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen
> <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>> wrote:
>
> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the
> rest of you
> lacking any sense of comprehension.
>
> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.
>
> My comment, word for word, . . .
>
> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere
> near US95 or
> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they
> knock on somebody
> else's door."
>
> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads
> weren't anywhere near
> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."
>
> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around
> with you, how
> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow
> Megaload Meeting
> videos to edit and post.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
> >
> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to
> know about him
> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she
> was in the
> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to
> mention
> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing
> the same thing
> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
> >
> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument
> who compares
> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
> >>
> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been
> invoked for the
> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or
> speeches"), then do
> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you
> obviously accept
> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied
> to Nasty Newt
> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his
> "Saint Augustine:
> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue"
> response)?
> >>
> >> Just wonderin'. . .
> >>
> >>
> >> Saundra Lund
> >> Moscow, ID
> >>
> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
> good people to
> >> do nothing.
> >> ~ Edmund Burke
> >>
> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright
> 2011 through life
> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward,
> excerpt, or
> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the
> express written
> >> permission of the author.*****
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
> >> To: Tom Hansen
> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About
> Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
> >>
> >>
> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this
> issue to the
> >> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
>
> >>
> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for
> these guys to move
> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep
> some perspective
> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road
> damage, possible
> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a
> little more money
> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would.
> Besides, if we "win",
> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these
> things and force
> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight,
> let's just keep it in
> >> perspective.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere
> near US95 or
> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as
> they knock on
> >>> somebody else's door.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>
> >
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>
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist
> expects it to
> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
>
> - Unknown
>
>
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