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    Well, everyone is harping on me for saying that whoever first
    invokes the Nazis loses the argument.&nbsp; That's my own take on
    things.&nbsp; What the law actually states is: "As an online discussion
    grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or
    Hitler approaches 1".&nbsp; I tend to think that the first side that does
    this loses the argument, but that's not official Godwin's Law
    canon.&nbsp; I forget that you can't just speak colloquially on this
    list.<br>
    <br>
    I would like to stress that it's a good way of determining when the
    discussion has jumped the shark.&nbsp; I mean, look at this very topic.&nbsp;
    We're talking about permits that are routinely handed out for large
    loads being moved over state highways.&nbsp; It probably happens multiple
    times per day throughout the state.&nbsp; Yet it's turned into some kind
    of "screw big oil" and "damn those republicans" rants.&nbsp; Granted
    these loads are larger in number and size, but the basics of the
    permit process are setup to handle that.<br>
    <br>
    Please take note, because I know that the rules of formal logic and
    discourse are important to you people, that I am not actually
    opposing your efforts.&nbsp; In my opinion, since the test load was such
    a snafu, the ITD should look more closely at their permit granting
    process.&nbsp; When power outages to multiple towns and hour-long delays
    happen on their test run, the ITD should think about denying any
    further permits until these problems have been shown to have been
    resolved.&nbsp; In contrast, if the test load had gone through swimmingly
    I would be arguing that they have done everything they were required
    to do and should not be denied access to public highways just
    because people don't like them.<br>
    <br>
    I just don't think that trying to deny permits is the right venue to
    stop big oil or whatever your goals actually are.<br>
    <br>
    Paul<br>
    <br>
    P.S.&nbsp; On other forums, whether the subject is politics, religion,
    conspiracy theories, global climate change, aliens, jpop music,
    programming languages or what have you when Godwin's Law is invoked
    people tend to work on reigning in their rhetoric because they
    realize they got a little worked up or whatever.&nbsp; That's the power
    of Godwin's Law.&nbsp; I'm curious if that will happen here.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 05/13/2011 11:11 AM, Art Deco wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:0F6862786F544CF2AFF838487C2D085D@LocalHost"
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      <div><font size="2">I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the
          so-called Godwin's Rule by showing why it is a fallacy.&nbsp;
          [Although previous attempts at rational argument with the
          individuals invoking the rule have been basically futile.]</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the
          Nazis first loses the argument." </font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious
          to compare anything of less than horrendous consequences (if
          that) to the Nazis.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Wrong.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">When A is compared to B, that means there is
          at least <strong>one</strong> property P in which A and B are
          similar.&nbsp; For example:&nbsp; Rotten apples are like rotten eggs.&nbsp;
          The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs&nbsp;is
          that both can be&nbsp;used to&nbsp;throw at corrupt politicians.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">One property that the Nazi regime&nbsp;had was
          making unilateral decisions from the highest level without
          consultation or discussion with those whom the decisions
          adversely impacted.&nbsp; That property is shared by Governor Otter
          in the megaload issue.&nbsp; Hence, the reference to Nazis&nbsp;would be
          correctly&nbsp;applied.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Comparison arguments are generally wrong when
          there is no property P in which the compared objects share or
          are similar.&nbsp; There may be other problems with particular
          comparison arguments, but if the comparison property is shared
          or similar, that is not the problem.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Like many others on this forum, I find that
          some of those who continually boast and trumpet themselves as
          advocates of free expression use Godwin like tactics to
          attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely
          informative book <em>Logic</em> by Wesley Salmon to those who
          are logically impaired.&nbsp; It can be downloaded in parts from
          the web.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2">Let me repeat:&nbsp; <strong><font color="#ff0000"
              size="5">Nazis are not the problem we are facing</font></strong>:</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>
        <div><font size="2">Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with
            Governor Otter, who then dictates the terms of the deal to
            the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are <strong>two
              major areas</strong> of great public impact and concern
            and&nbsp;where the secret deal prevented serious discussion and
            consideration:</font></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font size="2"><strong>1.</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Impacts of this
            secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the decision
            in many, many&nbsp;ways.</font></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font size="2"><strong>2.</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Impacts of enabling a
            project with huge adverse impacts, some of them fatal,&nbsp;on
            many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
            majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China,
            no friend of the environment, public health, or of the sense
            of fairness in international trade, patent, or currency
            regulations.</font></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font size="2">....</font></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>
          <div><font size="2">I again express my disappointment [and
              disgust] at Moscow public officials not having the
              knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
              oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of
              concern expressed above, but also because of the public
              policy considerations of allowing citizens to be the
              roadkill of&nbsp;a secret steamrolling secret deal about which
              they were prevented from participating in an open,
              meaningful&nbsp;discussion and debate over matters of serious
              importance to them.&nbsp; So much for the party of freedom and
              respect for the individual.</font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><font size="2">Adding: if conversations with people I
              meet while in Moscow are any indication, my disappointment
              and disgust are widely shared.</font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <font size="2">
          </font>
          <div><font size="2"><br>
              Wayne A. Fox<br>
              1009 Karen Lane<br>
              PO Box 9421<br>
              Moscow, ID&nbsp; 83843</font></div>
          <div><font size="2">&nbsp;</font></div>
          <div><font size="2"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>
              208 882-7975<br>
            </font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);
        padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px;
        margin-right: 0px;">
        <div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
        <div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0%
          0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
            href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
        <div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com"
            href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a> </div>
        <div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="vision2020@moscow.com"
            href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</a> </div>
        <div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011
          10:31 AM</div>
        <div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
          Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The
        rules began with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were
        perfected by folks like Boole and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted,
        reference to the rule -- which was made by you, Paul, not the
        interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw folks
        away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument
        or point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in
        the first place -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!<br>
        <br>
        I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above
        ...<br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul
          Rumelhart <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
            margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"
            class="gmail_quote">
            <div>
              <div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
                font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
                color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
                <div><span>I don't make the rules.&nbsp; Take it up with teh
                    interwebs if you think it's stupid.</span></div>
                <div><br>
                  <span></span></div>
                <div><span>I'm not really trying to win any sort of
                    debate here, myself.&nbsp; Just trying to impart a little
                    perspective.&nbsp; Use at your own risk.&nbsp; That's why
                    Godwin's Law is remarkably effective, actually.&nbsp;
                    It's a good indicator that rationality has left the
                    building and that further debate is only useful for
                    the lulz.<br>
                  </span></div>
                <div><br>
                  <span></span></div>
                <div><span>Paul<br>
                  </span></div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family: times new roman,new
                  york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
                  <div style="font-family: times new roman,new
                    york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font
                      face="Arial" size="2">
                      <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
                      Joe Campbell &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
                      Tom Hansen &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
                      Paul Rumelhart &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
                        target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>&gt;;
                      Saundra Lund &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm"
                        target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>&gt;;
                      Vision 2020 &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
                        target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
                      Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
                      <div class="im"><br>
                        <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
                        Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads
                        in Moscow<br>
                      </div>
                    </font><br>
                    <div>I made this point but Paul is not listening.
                      There was no comparison.<br>
                      <br>
                      The claim that "the first person in an argument
                      who compares the other side to the Nazis loses the
                      debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the
                      winner the person with the best haircut? The
                      person with the worst argument loses the debate.<br>
                      <br>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div class="h5">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17
                            AM, Tom Hansen <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
                                rel="nofollow" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>&gt;</span>
                            wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid
                          rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
                          padding-left: 1ex;">
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">Let me get one thing
                              straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest
                              of you<br>
                              lacking any sense of comprehension.<br>
                              <br>
                              My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at
                              Wayne Krauss.<br>
                              <br>
                              My comment, word for word, . . .<br>
                              <div><br>
                                "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads
                                weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>
                                Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis
                                as long as they knock on somebody<br>
                                else's door."<br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              The comparison I clearly drew was between
                              "megaloads weren't anywhere near<br>
                              US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on
                              somebody else's door."<br>
                              <br>
                              If you really do feel like dragging this
                              dead horse around with you, how<br>
                              about taking to your buddies at teh
                              sandbox, ok?<br>
                              <br>
                              'Nuff said.<br>
                              <br>
                              Now, if you will excuse me, I have four
                              hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting<br>
                              videos to edit and post.<br>
                              <br>
                              Tom Hansen<br>
                              Moscow, Idaho<br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5"><br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul
                                  Rumelhart wrote:<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  &gt; Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt
                                  Gingrich. &nbsp;All I need to know about
                                  him<br>
                                  &gt; is that he pressed his first wife
                                  for divorce while she was in the<br>
                                  &gt; hospital recovering from
                                  cancer-related surgery, not to mention<br>
                                  &gt; committing adultery while
                                  criticizing Clinton for doing the same
                                  thing<br>
                                  &gt; during the Monica Lewinski
                                  scandal.<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  &gt; Anyway, the idea is that the
                                  first person in an argument who
                                  compares<br>
                                  &gt; the other side to the Nazis loses
                                  the debate.<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  &gt; Paul<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  &gt; On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra
                                  Lund wrote:<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Huh -- I wasn't familiar with
                                  that term.<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Since you cited the Wikipedia
                                  article ("has been invoked for the<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; inappropriate use of Nazi
                                  analogies in articles or speeches"),
                                  then do<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; you agree that hyperbolic
                                  "Godwin's law" (which you obviously
                                  accept<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; since you called it) is far
                                  more appropriately applied to Nasty
                                  Newt<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Gingrich than to Tom
                                  Hansen&amp; &nbsp;to Ted Moffett (in his
                                  "Saint Augustine:<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; "Hypocrisy is the tribute
                                  that vice pays to virtue" response)?<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Just wonderin'. . .<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Saundra Lund<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Moscow, ID<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; The only thing necessary for
                                  the triumph of evil is for good people
                                  to<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; do nothing.<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; ~ Edmund Burke<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; ***** Original material
                                  contained herein is Copyright 2011
                                  through life<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.
                                  &nbsp;Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; reproduce outside the Vision
                                  2020 forum without the express written<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; permission of the
                                  author.*****<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
                                    rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011
                                  6:34 PM<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; To: Tom Hansen<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision
                                  2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
                                  Questions About Semi-Megaloads in
                                  Moscow<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Wow, you've just Godwin'd
                                  this thread by comparing this issue to
                                  the<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              &gt;&gt; Nazis. See <a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law"
                                target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</a>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5"><br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; I'm not looking forward to
                                  having to wait an hour for these guys
                                  to move<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; a semi-megaload down the
                                  highway, but let's try to keep some
                                  perspective<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; here. We're talking traffic
                                  delays, possible road damage, possible<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; electricity outages, and one
                                  giant megacorp putting a little more
                                  money<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; in their giant coffers than
                                  they otherwise would. Besides, if we
                                  "win",<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; they'll just find a more
                                  expensive way of moving these things
                                  and force<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; the extra cost on to the
                                  consumers.<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; I'm not saying you're not
                                  fighting the good fight, let's just
                                  keep it in<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; perspective.<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; Paul<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom
                                  Hansen wrote:<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;&gt; Excusing Krauss because
                                  the megaloads weren't anywhere near
                                  US95 or<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;&gt; Moscow yet is like
                                  justifying the Nazis as long as they
                                  knock on<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;&gt; somebody else's door.<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;&gt;<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  &gt;
                                  =======================================================<br>
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                                  &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mailto:<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
                                    rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                  &gt;
                                  =======================================================<br>
                                  &gt;<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
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                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">"The Pessimist complains
                              about the wind, the Optimist expects it to<br>
                              changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>
                              <br>
                              &nbsp;- Unknown<br>
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                                    href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
                                    rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
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                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <p> </p>
        <hr> =======================================================<br>
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        =======================================================</blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>                       
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
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