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Well, everyone is harping on me for saying that whoever first
invokes the Nazis loses the argument. That's my own take on
things. What the law actually states is: "As an online discussion
grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or
Hitler approaches 1". I tend to think that the first side that does
this loses the argument, but that's not official Godwin's Law
canon. I forget that you can't just speak colloquially on this
list.<br>
<br>
I would like to stress that it's a good way of determining when the
discussion has jumped the shark. I mean, look at this very topic.
We're talking about permits that are routinely handed out for large
loads being moved over state highways. It probably happens multiple
times per day throughout the state. Yet it's turned into some kind
of "screw big oil" and "damn those republicans" rants. Granted
these loads are larger in number and size, but the basics of the
permit process are setup to handle that.<br>
<br>
Please take note, because I know that the rules of formal logic and
discourse are important to you people, that I am not actually
opposing your efforts. In my opinion, since the test load was such
a snafu, the ITD should look more closely at their permit granting
process. When power outages to multiple towns and hour-long delays
happen on their test run, the ITD should think about denying any
further permits until these problems have been shown to have been
resolved. In contrast, if the test load had gone through swimmingly
I would be arguing that they have done everything they were required
to do and should not be denied access to public highways just
because people don't like them.<br>
<br>
I just don't think that trying to deny permits is the right venue to
stop big oil or whatever your goals actually are.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
P.S. On other forums, whether the subject is politics, religion,
conspiracy theories, global climate change, aliens, jpop music,
programming languages or what have you when Godwin's Law is invoked
people tend to work on reigning in their rhetoric because they
realize they got a little worked up or whatever. That's the power
of Godwin's Law. I'm curious if that will happen here.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/13/2011 11:11 AM, Art Deco wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:0F6862786F544CF2AFF838487C2D085D@LocalHost"
type="cite">
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<div><font size="2">I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the
so-called Godwin's Rule by showing why it is a fallacy.
[Although previous attempts at rational argument with the
individuals invoking the rule have been basically futile.]</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the
Nazis first loses the argument." </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious
to compare anything of less than horrendous consequences (if
that) to the Nazis.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Wrong.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">When A is compared to B, that means there is
at least <strong>one</strong> property P in which A and B are
similar. For example: Rotten apples are like rotten eggs.
The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is
that both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">One property that the Nazi regime had was
making unilateral decisions from the highest level without
consultation or discussion with those whom the decisions
adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor Otter
in the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to Nazis would be
correctly applied.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Comparison arguments are generally wrong when
there is no property P in which the compared objects share or
are similar. There may be other problems with particular
comparison arguments, but if the comparison property is shared
or similar, that is not the problem.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Like many others on this forum, I find that
some of those who continually boast and trumpet themselves as
advocates of free expression use Godwin like tactics to
attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely
informative book <em>Logic</em> by Wesley Salmon to those who
are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in parts from
the web.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Let me repeat: <strong><font color="#ff0000"
size="5">Nazis are not the problem we are facing</font></strong>:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font size="2">Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with
Governor Otter, who then dictates the terms of the deal to
the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are <strong>two
major areas</strong> of great public impact and concern
and where the secret deal prevented serious discussion and
consideration:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2"><strong>1.</strong> Impacts of this
secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the decision
in many, many ways.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2"><strong>2.</strong> Impacts of enabling a
project with huge adverse impacts, some of them fatal, on
many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China,
no friend of the environment, public health, or of the sense
of fairness in international trade, patent, or currency
regulations.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">....</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font size="2">I again express my disappointment [and
disgust] at Moscow public officials not having the
knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of
concern expressed above, but also because of the public
policy considerations of allowing citizens to be the
roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which
they were prevented from participating in an open,
meaningful discussion and debate over matters of serious
importance to them. So much for the party of freedom and
respect for the individual.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Adding: if conversations with people I
meet while in Moscow are any indication, my disappointment
and disgust are widely shared.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<font size="2">
</font>
<div><font size="2"><br>
Wayne A. Fox<br>
1009 Karen Lane<br>
PO Box 9421<br>
Moscow, ID 83843</font></div>
<div><font size="2"> </font></div>
<div><font size="2"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>
208 882-7975<br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);
padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px;
margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0%
0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="vision2020@moscow.com"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011
10:31 AM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The
rules began with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were
perfected by folks like Boole and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted,
reference to the rule -- which was made by you, Paul, not the
interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw folks
away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument
or point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in
the first place -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!<br>
<br>
I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above
...<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul
Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh
interwebs if you think it's stupid.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>I'm not really trying to win any sort of
debate here, myself. Just trying to impart a little
perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why
Godwin's Law is remarkably effective, actually.
It's a good indicator that rationality has left the
building and that further debate is only useful for
the lulz.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font
face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Joe Campbell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>;
Saundra Lund <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm"
target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>>;
Vision 2020 <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
<div class="im"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads
in Moscow<br>
</div>
</font><br>
<div>I made this point but Paul is not listening.
There was no comparison.<br>
<br>
The claim that "the first person in an argument
who compares the other side to the Nazis loses the
debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the
winner the person with the best haircut? The
person with the worst argument loses the debate.<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17
AM, Tom Hansen <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div class="h5">Let me get one thing
straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest
of you<br>
lacking any sense of comprehension.<br>
<br>
My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at
Wayne Krauss.<br>
<br>
My comment, word for word, . . .<br>
<div><br>
"Excusing Krauss because the megaloads
weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>
Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis
as long as they knock on somebody<br>
else's door."<br>
<br>
</div>
The comparison I clearly drew was between
"megaloads weren't anywhere near<br>
US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on
somebody else's door."<br>
<br>
If you really do feel like dragging this
dead horse around with you, how<br>
about taking to your buddies at teh
sandbox, ok?<br>
<br>
'Nuff said.<br>
<br>
Now, if you will excuse me, I have four
hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting<br>
videos to edit and post.<br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul
Rumelhart wrote:<br>
><br>
> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt
Gingrich. All I need to know about
him<br>
> is that he pressed his first wife
for divorce while she was in the<br>
> hospital recovering from
cancer-related surgery, not to mention<br>
> committing adultery while
criticizing Clinton for doing the same
thing<br>
> during the Monica Lewinski
scandal.<br>
><br>
> Anyway, the idea is that the
first person in an argument who
compares<br>
> the other side to the Nazis loses
the debate.<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
> On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra
Lund wrote:<br>
>> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with
that term.<br>
>><br>
>> Since you cited the Wikipedia
article ("has been invoked for the<br>
>> inappropriate use of Nazi
analogies in articles or speeches"),
then do<br>
>> you agree that hyperbolic
"Godwin's law" (which you obviously
accept<br>
>> since you called it) is far
more appropriately applied to Nasty
Newt<br>
>> Gingrich than to Tom
Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his
"Saint Augustine:<br>
>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute
that vice pays to virtue" response)?<br>
>><br>
>> Just wonderin'. . .<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Saundra Lund<br>
>> Moscow, ID<br>
>><br>
>> The only thing necessary for
the triumph of evil is for good people
to<br>
>> do nothing.<br>
>> ~ Edmund Burke<br>
>><br>
>> ***** Original material
contained herein is Copyright 2011
through life<br>
>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<br>
>> reproduce outside the Vision
2020 forum without the express written<br>
>> permission of the
author.*****<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011
6:34 PM<br>
>> To: Tom Hansen<br>
>> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision
2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in
Moscow<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Wow, you've just Godwin'd
this thread by comparing this issue to
the<br>
</div>
</div>
>> Nazis. See <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</a>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
>><br>
>> I'm not looking forward to
having to wait an hour for these guys
to move<br>
>> a semi-megaload down the
highway, but let's try to keep some
perspective<br>
>> here. We're talking traffic
delays, possible road damage, possible<br>
>> electricity outages, and one
giant megacorp putting a little more
money<br>
>> in their giant coffers than
they otherwise would. Besides, if we
"win",<br>
>> they'll just find a more
expensive way of moving these things
and force<br>
>> the extra cost on to the
consumers.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not saying you're not
fighting the good fight, let's just
keep it in<br>
>> perspective.<br>
>><br>
>> Paul<br>
>><br>
>> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom
Hansen wrote:<br>
>>> Excusing Krauss because
the megaloads weren't anywhere near
US95 or<br>
>>> Moscow yet is like
justifying the Nazis as long as they
knock on<br>
>>> somebody else's door.<br>
>><br>
>> <snip><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
>
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<div class="h5">"The Pessimist complains
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changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>
<br>
- Unknown<br>
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