[Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon Aug 1 19:09:47 PDT 2011


I agree for the most part, but I'd suggest leaving a few 
strategically-located military bases that would allow us to project 
power should we need to.  Phase the other ones out over the next decade 
or so.

I agree wholeheartedly about Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya.

Paul

On 08/01/2011 06:59 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> Seems to me the starting place should be the THREE wars we're 
> fighting. That Obama would argue that we're not at war in Libya is 
> loathesome.
>
> Let's start there, and then start shutting down the over-one-hundred 
> military bases we have around the world, and looking at the rest of 
> the military budget.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:45:45 -0700
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: jborden at datawedge.com; thansen at moscow.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>
> While we're on the subject, as an aside, this basically comes down to 
> the problem that always stymies cuts in government.  Cuts hurt.  They 
> may be worth it in the long run, but unless they are truly fluff they 
> will adversely affect someone.  Despite that fact, I think that 
> valuable services will have to be reduced or eliminated if we are 
> serious about getting this debt mess under control.  The problem is, 
> elected officials don't want to vote for spending cuts that affect 
> their constituencies and people don't want to see their favorite 
> services cut back.  So, the question is: exactly how serious are we 
> about cutting spending in government?
>
> I'm rather hoping this issue will put the idea of cutting services 
> back on the nation's consciousness.  If we as a populace realized that 
> we have a lot of control over what actually happens, we might have a 
> chance of reducing or eliminating some of the over-reaching programs 
> that have sprung up over the past decade or so, such as the Patriot 
> Act, warrantless wiretapping, fighting two wars, etc.  It might also 
> have the added benefit of reducing the current insane debt level that 
> is causing us so much trouble.  But we can't do it if we all fight 
> every cut that has consequences, just because it has some drawbacks.  
> It can't be done without making some sacrifices.  We just need to do 
> some cost/benefit analyses and make our choices wisely.  Avoiding the 
> hard decisions is what got us into this mess in the first place.
>
> Paul
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *To:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Monday, August 1, 2011 1:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>
> Sometimes, Mr. Hansen, you need to better explain your “heart of the 
> matter” instead of leaving it to be summarized by sarcastic 
> dismissals.   I didn’t tie you to the “liberal/Democratic” … but it 
> doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see you’re further left than I am.  
> However, anyone left to simply “read beyond the short comment”  (and 
> thus filling in the gaps with their own interpretations instead of 
> your ACTUAL opinion) would probably just peg you as a card-carrying 
> member of the progressive movement.
> It’s NOT “only logical”.   By this are you saying that EVERY SINGLE 
> FAA PROGRAM/EMPLOYEE IS TIED TO SAFETY?  How much of the FAA do we 
> actually NEED vs. WANT?  Are we really so trusting of our government 
> and its use of our monies that we simply default to an answer of, 
> “GIVE THE FAA EVERY PENNY IT NEEDS, OR LIGHTS WILL START FLICKERING ON 
> RUNWAYS”.
> How much of the FAA can be turned over to local states or local 
> airports, instead of a federal agency?  How much of the FAA is a 
> social agenda, as opposed to a NECESSARY service?
> http://www.faa.gov/about/budget/
> Take a peek at that and some of the budgets they’ve gone through… 
> (though I would tend to look more towards the 2012 budget stuff rather 
> than the older (2008 and prior) ones… as recent budgets have been 
> bloated/blurred with the stimulus packages and federal grant money… )
> “Reduction of Environment Impacts”… is THAT safety?
> “Improved Public Transit Experience”…. is THAT safety?
> “Improved Networks to accommodate Pedestrians and Bicycles?”  
> (Really?).  Is THAT safety?
> “Research Carbon Emissions, Improved Energy Efficiency, Reduce 
> Dependence on Oil”… Is that safety?
> ** Note:  I’m skimming the proposed 2012 budget for the FAA… I haven’t 
> read the details beyond this… I’m taking this stuff at face value... … 
> but just at face value, I don’t see a lot of links between these items 
> and having the runway lights flicker on final approach.
> I should also be clear in my position here:  I’m a fiscal conservative 
> and social liberal… I don’t lean so far right that I don’t see a role 
> for the FAA at all… but that doesn’t mean that we should be so 
> complacent about spending that it isn’t scrutinized at least a LITTLE 
> more before we start blindly start tossing around the notion that 
> “cutting spending directly ties to a decrease in safety”.
> (As a side note, Reagan fired something like 10,000 Air Traffic 
> Controllers in 1981… that would just about represent the most EXTREME 
> tie to safety I can think of, and I don’t remember reading about any 
> airplanes falling out of the sky as a result… )
> Jay
> *From:*Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 11:49 AM
> *To:* Jay Borden
> *Cc:* Mike Deleve; vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
> Sometimes, Mr. Borden, you've got to read beyond a short comment to 
> get to the heart of the matter.
> In my opinion, barring any evidence to the contrary, laying off 4,000 
> FAA employees, coupled with a drastic FAA budget cut, WILL adversely 
> impact safety.  It's only logical.
> Simply because a liberal/Democrat says something, DOES NOT mean that I 
> am in lockstep agreement with him/her.
> OK?
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to 
> change and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> - Unknown
>
> On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39, "Jay Borden" <jborden at datawedge.com 
> <mailto:jborden at datawedge.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ok… I get it… I’m a fiscal conservative and therefore my legit
>     questions will  be automatically met with snippy and “hand-waving”
>     answers from the left.
>     But the article that was POSTED FOR ME TO READ said that the
>     “shutdown will not affect airline safety”… Yet in response to my
>     question, folks are jumping on issues of SAFETY.
>     Either the folks who snipped back at my LEGITIMATE question didn’t
>     read the article that was posted up/shared, or they believe that
>     it’s all lies…
>     In either case, I’ll take the article at face value and assume
>     that the folks that are furloughed are not part of a “safety”
>     equation (however that equal sign pencils out).
>     How much do we ACTUALLY NEED some of this stuff?  As a nation,
>     we’ve taken such BROAD strokes to government and spending, we
>     don’t actually look to see how the pennies add up to dollars. 
>     When my wife and I look at our home budget, we don’t just look at
>     the BROAD spending we do in our home, we look at the NITTY GRITTY
>     pennies… (well, we obviously can’t cut FOOD out of our budget, but
>     maybe we can spend less name-brand cereal and get just the
>     Malto-Meal stuff?)
>     It’s a larger question…. (and keep in mind that I had my VFR
>     rating, and was on the verge of my IFR before I let it all lapse
>     just after 9/11)…  how much of this needs to be kept?
>     Jay
>     *From:*Mike Deleve [mailto:coolerfixer at roadrunner.com]
>     *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2011 4:37 PM
>     *To:* Jay Borden
>     *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>     Well Jay-
>     These are the people that do those unimportant things like
>     accident investigation, aircraft safety inspections and a really
>     dumb one. Licensing of pilots. My application will be delayed even
>     further now. If your privileges expire in the time frame that the
>     FAA has no authority, you can no longer fly. Period. The airlines
>     may be hit hard with expiring commercial pilot licenses. This is
>     no small thing. You can also bet a certain moron senator from
>     Oklahoma is involved in this because of his reckless activity,
>     just to extract some payback.
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         *From:*Jay Borden <mailto:jborden at datawedge.com>
>         *To:*Tom Hansen <mailto:thansen at moscow.com> ; Moscow Vision
>         2020 <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>         *Sent:*Monday, July 25, 2011 5:53 PM
>         *Subject:*Re: [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>         According to the article, “the shutdown will not affect
>         airline safety”…  then what exactly are these 4000 people that
>         are on the payroll doing?
>         And… do we need them?
>         (Generally, I’m in favor of many of these government/agency
>         shutdowns… you’ll never really know how much government you
>         can live without until you wake up and never even realize it
>         was missing)
>         Jay
>         *From:*vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>         <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>
>         [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom Hansen
>         *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 8:53 AM
>         *To:* Moscow Vision 2020
>         *Subject:* [Vision2020] Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>         Jus' another attempt by our friendly, people-oriented Tea . .
>         . er, uh . . . I mean Republican (it's gettin harder to tell
>         them apart without DNA) Party to shut down 'nother one of them
>         commie pinko socialist unions.
>         Courtesy of The Boston Globe at:
>         http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/07/23/impasses_lead_to_shutdown_of_faa/?page=full
>         ------------------------------
>
>
>           Impasses lead to shutdown of FAA
>
>         WASHINGTON - Efforts to avert a shutdown of the Federal
>         Aviation Administration failed yesterday amid a disagreement
>         over a $16.5 million cut in subsidies to 13 rural communities,
>         ensuring that at midnight nearly 4,000 people will be
>         temporarily out of work and federal airline ticket taxes will
>         be suspended.
>         Lawmakers were unable to resolve a partisan dispute over an
>         extension of the agency’s operating authority.
>         The subsidy cut was included by Republicans in a House bill
>         extending operating authority for the FAA, which has a $16
>         billion budget. Senate Democrats refused to accept the House
>         bill with the cuts, and Republican senators refused to accept
>         a Democratic bill without it. Lawmakers then adjourned for the
>         weekend.
>         But underlying the dispute on rural air service subsidies was
>         a standoff between the GOP-controlled House and the
>         Democratic-controlled Senate over a provision in long-term
>         funding legislation for the FAA that would make it more
>         difficult for airline and railroad workers to unionize.
>         Obama administration officials have said the shutdown will not
>         affect air safety. Air traffic controllers will remain on the
>         job. But airlines will lose the authority to collect about
>         $200 million a week in ticket taxes that go into a trust fund
>         that pays for FAA programs.
>         FAA employees whose jobs are paid for with trust fund money
>         will be furloughed, including nearly 1,000 workers at the
>         agency’s headquarters in Washington, 647 workers at FAA’s
>         technology and research center in Atlantic City, and 124
>         workers at the agency’s training center in Oklahoma City.
>         “These are real people with families who do not deserve to be
>         put out of work during these tough economic times,’’ FAA
>         Administrator Randy Babbitt said in a statement.
>         Airline passengers could see a big savings on their airfares,
>         but the situation is complicated. Federal taxes on a $300
>         round-trip airfare are about $61, but about half of that is
>         airport and security fees that will continue to be collected,
>         according to the Air Transport Association.
>         Airlines, alerted earlier this week that FAA authority could
>         expire, have been making adjustments to their computer systems
>         and websites so that at midnight, taxes will no longer be
>         added to airfares, the association said.
>         One airline, US Airways, was already raising its fares. Other
>         airlines may try to reap a windfall profit from the tax holiday.
>         Passengers who bought their tickets before the shutdown but
>         who travel during the shutdown may wind up due a refund,
>         Treasury Department spokeswoman Sandra Salstrom said. That’s
>         because it’s not clear whether the government can keep taxes
>         for travel that takes place during a period when the
>         government doesn’t have authority to collect taxes, she said.
>         Likewise, it’s not clear if passengers who buy tickets after
>         midnight with no taxes included will wind up owing taxes if
>         their travel takes place after FAA’s operating authority is
>         restored, she said.
>         Long-term funding authority for the FAA expired in 2007.
>         Unable to agree on new long-term funding legislation for the
>         agency, Congress has kept the FAA operating through a series
>         of 20 short-term extension bills. The extensions had been
>         routine until this week.
>         The Senate passed a long-term bill in February; and the House
>         a different version in April. Lawmakers have resolved most of
>         the differences between the bills, but no progress has been
>         made on a half dozen or more controversial issues.
>         Republicans said Senate majority leader Harry Reid, a Nevada
>         Democrat, is insisting that a labor provision in the House
>         bill sought by the airline industry must be dropped before
>         negotiations can go forward.
>         The labor provision would overturn a National Mediation Board
>         rule approved last year that allows airline and railroad
>         employees to form a union by a simple majority of those
>         voting. Under the old rule, workers who didn’t vote were
>         treated as “no’’ votes. The Republicans complain that the new
>         rule reverses 75 years of precedent to favor labor unions.
>         Democrats and union officials say the change puts airline and
>         railroad elections under the same democratic rules required
>         for unionizing all other companies.
>         The White House warned in March that President Obama might
>         veto the bill if the labor provision is retained.
>         Just before he blocked the Democrats’ extension bill, Senator
>         Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican, said he shared House
>         Republicans’ frustration “that favors to organized labor have
>         overshadowed the prospects for long-term FAA’’ funding.
>         Another unresolved issue involves about $200 million in air
>         services subsidies to rural communities. The program was
>         created when airlines were deregulated in 1978 to ensure
>         continued air service on less profitable routes to isolated
>         communities. The House long-term FAA bill would eliminate the
>         program except for airports in Alaska.
>         ------------------------------
>         Seeya round town, Moscow.
>         Tom Hansen
>         Moscow, Idaho
>         "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects
>         it to change and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>         - Unknown
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