[Vision2020] Say What?

Wed Sep 16 10:36:10 PDT 2009

Sunil,

First, you are totally correct about Afghanistan NEVER having been  
successfully occupied throughout history, and to try that today is  
total folly if not insanity.

Having said that, do I think that there could be any kind of success  
over there? YES, I do, but not if we keep going the way we are now.  
First, we need to cut our troop
numbers in half, and loose ALL of the mercenaries/contractors we have  
over there. And of the 35k soldiers that are left, we need to swap  
them out and put in more builders,
trainers and consensus builders on the ground. The Afghan's that I met  
over the last 7 years don't want or need a hand out, they need a hand  
up. When the military adopted
the Rumsfeld doctrine /mind set that the military is not a "nation  
building" organization, we were doomed to failure there.

Can it be brought around? YES, it can, but not with what we're doing  
now. The solution to Afghanistan's problems HAS to be an Afghanistani  
solution, not one dreamed
up by middle class white guys and imposed on them from Washington or  
the Pentagon. Has ANYONE read anywhere what Afghanistan is supposed to  
look like when we
declare victory and leave?  It's not good enough to say we don't know  
what success is supposed to look like, but we'll know it when we get  
there!

Let's just take this last election over there as an example. Do you  
really trust the accuracy of the vote counting?  Has the US come out  
and said, "Wait a minute, the election was so riddled with
fraud that we have to go back to square one and start all over"?   
Nope! And why not?  Well, what happens when the Afghanistani leader  
that we hand picked, Karzai, looks the Americans in the eye and say,  
Is my election any more or less suspect than George Bush's  in 2001?   
Do we have the testical fortitude to tell him, no, it isn't but here  
you are going to do it over again or you have lost our support.  The  
people of Afghanistan are a proud
noble people. Prior to the last election Karzai was at best considered  
the Mayor of Kabul, now he is considered the fraudulently elected  
Mayor of Kabul!

Now, there are some hard liners here that would ask: What if they  
elect someone that doesn't like Americans?  GREAT! That makes the  
withdrawal even easier, and it IS a great victory for democracy! THE  
PEOPLE
elected a government that wants us out, that is their will and desire,  
IF it is an honest election, not like the farce that they just went  
through.

Now, as to the matter of Pakistan, and the acts of war that we  
continue to commit against them. Attacks on sovereign  Pakistani  
territory, without the permission of the government ,is an act of war  
and I can only assume at this point there is some reason why the  
government of Pakistan hasn't hauled the US before the UN for an  
answer to some very pointed questions.  What a GREAT way to build  
friendships in the area!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sep 16, 2009, at 9:58 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:

> I'm with Chuck on this.  Obama has adopted the prosecution of the  
> Afghanistan war, and it will go no better for him than for Bush, and  
> no better than Vietnam went for the presidents who prosecuted that  
> war.
>
> If anyone can show me where there has been a successful occupation  
> of Afghanistan, I'll be willing to look at it, and perhaps think  
> there's a reason to change my mind.
>
> Continued bombing in Pakistan by unmanned aircraft.  How can this be  
> considered anything but an act of war? How can a legitimate  
> Pakistani government remain in power while allowing this to happen?   
> Would you support an American leader who allowed someone to bomb  
> us?  Why would anyone think it would succeed in Afghanistan or  
> Pakistan?
>
> Sunil
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:29:50 -0700
> > From: thansen at moscow.com
> > To: ckovis at turbonet.com
> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> >
> > Chuck -
> >
> > Barack Obama has been in office less than eight months. He has  
> alot more
> > on his proverbial "dinner plate" than virtually any president in US
> > history (with the exception of Lincoln).
> >
> > Considering the circumstances, I believe he is doing (at worst) an
> > acceptable job.
> >
> > Heck!! King George the 43rd had vowed, and promised the American  
> people,
> > that he would apprehend Usama bin Laden and bring him to justice.  
> That
> > promise he made seven years ago.
> >
> > Usama bin Laden has yet to be apprehended, in spite of his cameo
> > apppearances on classmates.com and a gurantee made by McCain.
> >
> > And how about McCain? You remember him, right? He told the American
> > people (during his campaign last year) that he knows how to catch  
> bin
> > Laden, and that he (McCain) would do just that once he (McCain) is  
> sworn
> > in as president.
> >
> > Why won't he (McCain) shre this secret with us?
> >
> > JEESH!
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> > > Tom, we don't have King George anymore. We have Obama. A person  
> for whom
> > > I
> > > voted. And he isn't getting us out! Out! Just get the hell out.  
> That's
> > > all. Chuck Kovis
> >
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