[Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

Tue Sep 1 19:50:17 PDT 2009

It took you and your friends all day to come up with this?

You completely missed the point. I'm not bringing up old news. It  
would take more time than I care to take to correct the lies and  
distortions of your account of the original event, for one thing.

The point is I wouldn't have expected you to carry on the way you did  
given that you think the first amendment protects free speech, as long  
as it is vague (which is the latest version of your defense of members  
of the lunitic fringe right if we believe 1 below).

So as long as threats are vague they are protected as free speach!?!  
And this principle is backed by what amendment? By what set of cases?  
By what argument?

I respect your defense of free speech but you sure pick the strangest  
examples -- revisionism about slavery, insults directed at gays and  
Muslims, vague threats directed toward a black president coupled with  
folks weilding guns attending his speeches. It is almost as if speech  
has to be at least insulting to a minority, in addition to being  
vague. My speech is worthy of criticism because it wasn't vague and it  
was directed at a white guy. Convienient view!

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:43 PM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> Au contraire, mon pauvre con fraire! You are incorrect in multiple  
> (read all) instances.
>
> 1. Vague? Please allow me to quote verbatim "I will come to your  
> place of work and punch you right in the nose." Your notion of vague  
> is as sketchy as your self control. One can but wonder what you  
> might consider overt.
>
> 2. I reposted your silly, impotent threat directly to the V. Dale  
> picked it up from there. I am under zero obligation to keep  
> unsolicited junk e-mail private.
>
> 3. At no time did I assert that you had no right to make moronic  
> threats that you were incapable of carrying out. Should any of the  
> above be in doubt, refresh your failing memory at:
>
> [Vision2020] thin skinned?   g. crabtree Thu May 18 20:07:59 PDT 2006
>
> 4. Hypocrite? My reason for reposting your shining example of poor  
> impulse control was driven by the fact that just a few days prior  
> you had elected to edify our community with an editorial in the   
> local daily paper on your version of proper community dialog and  
> tolerance. When it comes to hypocrites of stature I would think you  
> might search a little closer to home.
>
> On a side note, why is it when this subject comes up via others you  
> shriek like a stiffed strumpet but when you imagine it works for  
> your weak to nonexistent argument you trot it out like a prized  
> pony. Hypocrite indeed!
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe Campbell
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: Andreas Schou ; Moscow Vision 2020
> Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>
> You certainly cared when I made a vague threat to you a few years  
> back and you shipped a personal letter from me to you to you friend  
> Dale to post on his website. We didn't here much talk about free  
> speech then!
>
> I have to say, you are the biggest hypocrite and the most one sided  
> zealot I have ever met! Which is funny since you are constantly  
> accusing others of hypocracy.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague threats" one way or  
>> the other. I believe in the first amendment protection of free  
>> speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't  
>> believe that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism"  
>> and for another it's "hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered  
>> remarks are an equal right not a "two wrongs don't make a right" as  
>> one of our more deranged posters has suggested.
>>
>> I am going to have to take your word for the beliefs of "AR-15  
>> toting dude"  and friends. As you probably know, I disagree with  
>> most of what you claim they profess. That said, I don't think that  
>> exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat. Arizona,  
>> along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was  
>> doing was completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable"  
>> or scared that is their right as well. Americans are entitled to  
>> their feelings. I find your attitude in this regard strange  
>> however. This (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as well as  
>> open, the number of firearms that surround you on a daily basis is  
>> rather large. Every major group you are among contains dozens of  
>> lethal pieces of hardware. Do you find this debilitating?
>>
>> So, your qualms in order. Where you feel "comfortable" is a purely  
>> personal concern. It is not the responsibility of others. Speaking  
>> strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display of hacky sacks  
>> makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and deal.
>>
>> Second and third, the waste of resources issue is a non-starter.  
>> The SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the way the  
>> government wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny  
>> portion of a drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for  
>> you, a better, easier, and cheaper solution would be for you to  
>> insist that the president stay in the whitehouse and try to  
>> accomplish something useful and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for  
>> adulation.
>>
>>
>> Your fourth and final point I don't really understand. Are you  
>> suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners will  
>> suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK  
>> corral? That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own  
>> (shades of the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their  
>> owners? Or are you suggesting, as a great many of those with your  
>> "strong and contrary beliefs" do, that one group of peoples rights  
>> should be taken away to cover for some      vague and unlikely  
>> possibility and to make another group a little more at ease?
>>
>> g
>> From: Andreas Schou
>> To: g. crabtree
>> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>>
>> Gary --
>>
>> I'm just not sure on your position here. Do you think people should  
>> be making vague threats against the President or not? Or are you  
>> just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites without taking  
>> a position yourself?
>>
>> Here's your way out. I'm a little confused as to why you didn't  
>> take it:
>>
>> These aren't my people; I'm not responsible for them. They're  
>> crazy; I'm not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The People  
>> Foundation, which is an advocacy        organization for tax  
>> protesters. They're also birthers. They print their own money. They  
>> want to return to the gold standard. They believe the Venezuelan  
>> government stole the last US election by tampering with US voting  
>> machines. They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by which  
>> I mean, "the near side of the far right." I find some of your  
>> beliefs distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so  
>> much with these lunatics.
>>
>> I also mentioned that I found the protester with the AR-15 a little  
>> scary.
>>
>> He showed up at a Presidential rally toting an assault rifle. His  
>> pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow an intent to  
>> kill the President while being interviewed on television,. His  
>> buddy showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New  
>> Hampshire rally. There's a difference between a vague threat  
>> delivered by a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the  
>> country and a threat delivered by a militia gunman a block away.
>>
>> Neither, you might note, is likely to actually to kill the  
>> President. That's not, however, what I'm worried about. First, I  
>> have a lot of strong and contrary political beliefs. I'm  
>> uncomfortable expressing them with my back to military-grade  
>> firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed and licensed  
>> person a block away from the President is a waste of resources,  
>> given that it's probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service  
>> sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper  
>> on fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and  
>> there appears to be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots  
>> from showing up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a  
>> situation with a lot of shouting and pushing, threatening signs,  
>> twitchy cops, and security        cordons is an awful idea. Someone  
>> will get hurt. It is unlikely to be Obama, but that doesn't mean I  
>> don't care.
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree  
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> It seems to me that you and campbell are in a neck and neck  
>> competition to post the most addled response to my pointing out yet  
>> another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the          Rammell quip.  
>> Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the man with a  
>> fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in  
>> competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you  
>> expound a moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors  
>> and provide an instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who  
>> knows, with enough breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and  
>> outright disregard for truthfulness you might just give the  
>> pedantic perfesser a run for his money!
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Andreas Schou
>> To: the lockshop
>> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>>
>> Gary --
>>
>> Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things like the AR-15-toting  
>> dude showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to disavow  
>> calling for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a national joke  
>> who can't keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And,  
>> incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of the Libertarian party  
>> and a militia crank, I don't think he's "yours," except insofar as  
>> you try to keep claiming him.
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>> For those of you that haven't seen the follow-up: http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu
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>
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