<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div>It took you and your friends all day to come up with this? </div><div><br></div><div>You completely missed the point. I'm not bringing up old news. It would take more time than I care to take to correct the lies and distortions of your account of the original event, for one thing.</div><div><br></div><div>The point is I wouldn't have expected you to carry on the way you did given that you think the first amendment protects free speech, as long as it is vague (which is the latest version of your defense of members of the lunitic fringe right if we believe 1 below).</div><div><br></div><div>So as long as threats are vague they are protected as free speach!?! And this principle is backed by what amendment? By what set of cases? By what argument?</div><div><br></div><div>I respect your defense of free speech but you sure pick the strangest examples -- revisionism about slavery, insults directed at gays and Muslims, vague threats directed toward a black president coupled with folks weilding guns attending his speeches. It is almost as if speech has to be at least insulting to a minority, in addition to being vague. My speech is worthy of criticism because it wasn't vague and it was directed at a white guy. Convienient view!<span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.289062); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.222656); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.222656); "> </span></div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:43 PM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Au contraire, mon pauvre con fraire! You are
incorrect in multiple (read all) instances. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">1. Vague? Please allow me to quote verbatim
"<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">I will come to your place of work and punch
you right in the nose."</font> Your notion of vague is as sketchy as your
self control. One can but wonder what you might consider
overt.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">2. I reposted your silly, impotent threat
directly to the V. Dale picked it up from there. I am under zero obligation to
keep unsolicited junk e-mail private.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">3. At no time did I assert that you had no
right to make moronic threats that you were incapable of carrying out. Should
any of the above be in doubt, refresh your failing memory at:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-May/029780.html">[Vision2020]
thin skinned? </a><a name="29780"> </a> <em>g. crabtree Thu May 18 20:07:59
PDT 2006</em> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">4. Hypocrite? My reason for reposting your shining
example of poor impulse control was driven by the fact that just a few
days prior you had elected to edify our community with an editorial in the
local daily paper on your version of proper community dialog and tolerance. When
it comes to hypocrites of stature I would think you might search a little closer
to home.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">On a side note, why is it when this subject comes
up via others you shriek like a stiffed strumpet but when you imagine it works
for your weak to nonexistent argument you trot it out like a prized pony.
Hypocrite indeed!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision
2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:46
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags'
Called a Joke</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>You certainly cared when I made a vague threat to you a few years back
and you shipped a personal letter from me to you to you friend Dale to post on
his website. We didn't here much talk about free speech then!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have to say, you are the biggest hypocrite and the most one sided
zealot I have ever met! Which is funny since you are constantly accusing
others of hypocracy.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></a><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague
threats" one way or the other. I believe in the first amendment protection
of free speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't
believe that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism" and for
another it's "hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered remarks are an equal
right not a "two wrongs don't make a right" as one of our more deranged
posters has suggested.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I am going to have to take your word for the
beliefs of "AR-15 toting dude" and friends. As you probably
know, I disagree with most of what you claim they profess. That said, I
don't think that exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat.
Arizona, along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was
doing was completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable" or scared
that is their right as well. Americans are entitled to their feelings. I
find your attitude in this regard strange however. This (Idaho) being a
concealed carry state as well as open, the number of firearms that surround
you on a daily basis is rather large. Every major group you are among
contains dozens of lethal pieces of hardware. Do you find this
debilitating?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">So, your qualms in order. Where you feel
"comfortable" is a purely personal concern. It is not the responsibility of
others. Speaking strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display
of hacky sacks makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and
deal.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Second and third, the waste of resources
issue is a non-starter. The SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the
way the government wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny
portion of a drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for you, a
better, easier, and cheaper solution would be for you to insist that
the president stay in the whitehouse and try to accomplish something useful
and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for adulation.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Your fourth and final point I don't really
understand. Are you suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners
will suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK
corral? That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own (shades of
the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners? Or are you
suggesting, as a great many of those with your "strong and contrary beliefs"
do, that one group of peoples rights should be taken away to cover for some
vague and unlikely possibility and to make another group a little more at
ease?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama
Tags' Called a Joke</div>
<div><br></div>Gary --<br><br>I'm just not sure on your position here. Do
you think people should be making vague threats against the President or
not? Or are you just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites
without taking a position yourself?<br><br>Here's your way out. I'm a
little confused as to why you didn't take it: <br><br>These aren't my
people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy; I'm not. The assault
rifle guys are from the We The People Foundation, which is an advocacy
organization for tax protesters. They're also birthers. They print their
own money. They want to return to the gold standard. They believe the
Venezuelan government stole the last US election by tampering with US
voting machines. They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by which
I mean, "the near side of the far right." I find some of your beliefs
distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so much with these
lunatics.<br><br>I also mentioned that I found the protester with the
AR-15 a little scary. <br><br>He showed up at a Presidential rally toting
an assault rifle. His pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow
an intent to kill the President while being interviewed on television,.
His buddy showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New
Hampshire rally. There's a difference between a vague threat delivered by
a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a threat
delivered by a militia gunman a block away. <br><br>Neither, you
might note, is likely to actually to kill the President. That's not,
however, what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong and
contrary political beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my back
to military-grade firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed
and licensed person a block away from the President is a waste of
resources, given that it's probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service
sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper on
fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and there
appears to be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots from showing
up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a situation with a lot of
shouting and pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops, and security
cordons is an awful idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely to be
Obama, but that doesn't mean I don't care.<br><br>-- ACS<br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></a><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></a><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">It seems to me that you and campbell are in
a neck and neck competition to post the most addled response to my
pointing out yet another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the
Rammell quip. Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the
man with a fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in
competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you expound a
moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors and provide an
instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows, with enough
breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard for
truthfulness you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his
money!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div></font>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="im">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><b>From:</b>
<a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">Andreas Schou</a> </div></div>
<div class="im">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>To:</b>
<a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" target="_blank">the lockshop</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Cc:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Moscow Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke</div>
<div><br></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5">Gary --<br><br>Incidentally, I'm more concerned about
things like the AR-15-toting dude showing up to the Obama rally while
refusing to disavow calling for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a
national joke who can't keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And,
incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of the Libertarian party and a
militia crank, I don't think he's "yours," except insofar as you try
to keep claiming him.<br><br>-- ACS<br><br>For those of you that
haven't seen the follow-up: <a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"></a><a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"><a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu">http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu</a></a>
<br></div></div>
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