[Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Tue Sep 1 07:46:52 PDT 2009


You certainly cared when I made a vague threat to you a few years back  
and you shipped a personal letter from me to you to you friend Dale to  
post on his website. We didn't here much talk about free speech then!

I have to say, you are the biggest hypocrite and the most one sided  
zealot I have ever met! Which is funny since you are constantly  
accusing others of hypocracy.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague threats" one way or  
> the other. I believe in the first amendment protection of free  
> speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't  
> believe that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism" and  
> for another it's "hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered remarks  
> are an equal right not a "two wrongs don't make a right" as one of  
> our more deranged posters has suggested.
>
> I am going to have to take your word for the beliefs of "AR-15  
> toting dude"  and friends. As you probably know, I disagree with  
> most of what you claim they profess. That said, I don't think that  
> exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat. Arizona,  
> along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was  
> doing was completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable" or  
> scared that is their right as well. Americans are entitled to their  
> feelings. I find your attitude in this regard strange however. This  
> (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as well as open, the number of  
> firearms that surround you on a daily basis is rather large. Every  
> major group you are among contains dozens of lethal pieces of  
> hardware. Do you find this debilitating?
>
> So, your qualms in order. Where you feel "comfortable" is a purely  
> personal concern. It is not the responsibility of others. Speaking  
> strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display of hacky sacks  
> makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and deal.
>
> Second and third, the waste of resources issue is a non-starter. The  
> SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the way the government  
> wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny portion of a  
> drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for you, a better,  
> easier, and cheaper solution would be for you to insist that the  
> president stay in the whitehouse and try to accomplish something  
> useful and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for adulation.
>
>
> Your fourth and final point I don't really understand. Are you  
> suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners will suddenly  
> become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK corral?  
> That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own (shades of  
> the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners? Or are  
> you suggesting, as a great many of those with your "strong and  
> contrary beliefs" do, that one group of peoples rights should be  
> taken away to cover for some vague and unlikely possibility and to  
> make another group a little more at ease?
>
> g
> From: Andreas Schou
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>
> Gary --
>
> I'm just not sure on your position here. Do you think people should  
> be making vague threats against the President or not? Or are you  
> just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites without taking a  
> position yourself?
>
> Here's your way out. I'm a little confused as to why you didn't take  
> it:
>
> These aren't my people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy;  
> I'm not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The People  
> Foundation, which is an advocacy organization for tax protesters.  
> They're also birthers. They print their own money. They want to  
> return to the gold standard. They believe the Venezuelan government  
> stole the last US election by tampering with US voting machines.  
> They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by which I mean,  
> "the near side of the far right." I find some of your beliefs  
> distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so much with  
> these lunatics.
>
> I also mentioned that I found the protester with the AR-15 a little  
> scary.
>
> He showed up at a Presidential rally toting an assault rifle. His  
> pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow an intent to  
> kill the President while being interviewed on television,. His buddy  
> showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New Hampshire  
> rally. There's a difference between a vague threat delivered by a  
> puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a threat  
> delivered by a militia gunman a block away.
>
> Neither, you might note, is likely to actually to kill the  
> President. That's not, however, what I'm worried about. First, I  
> have a lot of strong and contrary political beliefs. I'm  
> uncomfortable expressing them with my back to military-grade  
> firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed and licensed  
> person a block away from the President is a waste of resources,  
> given that it's    probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service  
> sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper  
> on fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and  
> there appears to be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots  
> from showing up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a situation  
> with a lot of shouting and pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops,  
> and security cordons is an awful idea. Someone will get hurt. It is  
> unlikely to be Obama, but that doesn't mean I don't care.
>
> -- ACS
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>  
> wrote:
> It seems to me that you and campbell are in a neck and neck  
> competition to post the most addled response to my pointing out yet  
> another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the Rammell quip.  
> Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the man with a  
> fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in  
> competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you  
> expound a moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors  
> and provide an instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who  
> knows, with enough breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and  
> outright disregard for truthfulness you might just give the pedantic  
> perfesser a run for his money!
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andreas Schou
> To: the lockshop
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>
> Gary --
>
> Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things like the AR-15-toting  
> dude showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to disavow calling  
> for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a national joke who can't  
> keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And, incidentally, Gary,  
> since he's a member of the Libertarian party and a militia crank, I  
> don't think he's "yours," except insofar as you try to keep claiming  
> him.
>
> -- ACS
>
> For those of you that haven't seen the follow-up: http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu
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