<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>You certainly cared when I made a vague threat to you a few years back and you shipped a personal letter from me to you to you friend Dale to post on his website. We didn't here much talk about free speech then!</div><div><br></div><div>I have to say, you are the biggest hypocrite and the most one sided zealot I have ever met! Which is funny since you are constantly accusing others of hypocracy.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague
threats" one way or the other. I believe in the first amendment protection of
free speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't believe
that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism" and for another it's
"hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered remarks are an equal right not a "two
wrongs don't make a right" as one of our more deranged posters has
suggested.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I am going to have to take your word for the
beliefs of "AR-15 toting dude" and friends. As you probably
know, I disagree with most of what you claim they profess. That said, I don't
think that exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat. Arizona,
along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was doing was
completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable" or scared that is their
right as well. Americans are entitled to their feelings. I find your attitude in
this regard strange however. This (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as
well as open, the number of firearms that surround you on a daily basis is
rather large. Every major group you are among contains dozens of lethal
pieces of hardware. Do you find this debilitating?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">So, your qualms in order. Where you feel
"comfortable" is a purely personal concern. It is not the responsibility of
others. Speaking strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display
of hacky sacks makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and
deal.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Second and third, the waste of resources issue
is a non-starter. The SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the way the
government wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny portion of a
drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for you, a better, easier, and
cheaper solution would be for you to insist that the president stay in the
whitehouse and try to accomplish something useful and stop with the 24/7/365
campaign for adulation.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Your fourth and final point I don't really
understand. Are you suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners will
suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK corral? That
the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own (shades of the dumbest of
Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners? Or are you suggesting, as a great
many of those with your "strong and contrary beliefs" do, that one group of
peoples rights should be taken away to cover for some vague and unlikely
possibility and to make another group a little more at ease?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags'
Called a Joke</div>
<div><br></div>Gary --<br><br>I'm just not sure on your position here. Do you
think people should be making vague threats against the President or not? Or
are you just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites without taking a
position yourself?<br><br>Here's your way out. I'm a little confused as to why
you didn't take it: <br><br>These aren't my people; I'm not responsible for
them. They're crazy; I'm not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The
People Foundation, which is an advocacy organization for tax protesters.
They're also birthers. They print their own money. They want to return to the
gold standard. They believe the Venezuelan government stole the last US
election by tampering with US voting machines. They bear little, if any,
relationship to you -- by which I mean, "the near side of the far right." I
find some of your beliefs distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible.
Not so much with these lunatics.<br><br>I also mentioned that I found the
protester with the AR-15 a little scary. <br><br>He showed up at a
Presidential rally toting an assault rifle. His pastor's praying for Obama's
death. He won't disavow an intent to kill the President while being
interviewed on television,. His buddy showed up with a rifle and a threatening
sign at the New Hampshire rally. There's a difference between a vague threat
delivered by a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a
threat delivered by a militia gunman a block away. <br><br>Neither, you
might note, is likely to actually to kill the President. That's not, however,
what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong and contrary political
beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my back to military-grade
firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed and licensed person a
block away from the President is a waste of resources, given that it's
probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service sniper on him at all times.
Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper on fifty gun-toting militia members is
a logistical nightmare, and there appears to be no good way to prevent fifty
gun-toting idiots from showing up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a
situation with a lot of shouting and pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops,
and security cordons is an awful idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely
to be Obama, but that doesn't mean I don't care.<br><br>-- ACS<br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">It seems to me that you and campbell are in a
neck and neck competition to post the most addled response to my
pointing out yet another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the
Rammell quip. Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the man
with a fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in
competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you expound a
moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors and provide an
instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows, with enough
breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard for
truthfulness you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his
money!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div></font>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="im">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><b>From:</b>
<a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">Andreas Schou</a> </div></div>
<div class="im">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>To:</b>
<a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" target="_blank">the lockshop</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Cc:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Moscow Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke</div>
<div><br></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5">Gary --<br><br>Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things
like the AR-15-toting dude showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to
disavow calling for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a national joke
who can't keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And, incidentally,
Gary, since he's a member of the Libertarian party and a militia crank, I
don't think he's "yours," except insofar as you try to keep claiming
him.<br><br>-- ACS<br><br>For those of you that haven't seen the
follow-up: <a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu">http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu</a></a>
<br></div></div>
<p></p>
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<div class="im">
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