[Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time S

Tue Oct 20 15:22:32 PDT 2009

Ted,

Thanks for posting the thoughtful article. 

I am sure many of the soldiers, including UBL, that fought against the USSR were the Generals and Officers of today's Afghans Army and the Taliban, just as soldiers of WWI were officers in WWII, and soldiers in the Mexican-US War were officers in the Civil War. However, they are not the same entities more than twenty years later. 

I am sure UBL is being protected. otherwise he would be dead now, if he isn't already. I don't think the US will kill him. 

I agree that building schools and hospitals would do more than the military for winning the peace. However, I don't think our military should be doing that. It should simply eliminate military threats. I believe neutral charity organizations should be building schools, hospitals, shelters, and libraries. 

Donovan Arnold

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "Wayne Price" <bear at moscow.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 10:04 PM

Read the piece "Blowback" I referenced in my previous post in this thread by Chalmers Johnson from "The Nation."  

It is misleading to say that the Taliban the US supported to overthrow the Soviets are not the same Taliban that inspired the invasion of Afghanistan to weed out the Islamic extremists associated with 9/11, or the Taliban of 2009.  Osama bin Laden and associates were supported by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, and it is entirely possible that bin Laden remains protected somewhere in Afghanistan or Pakistan by those sympathetic to his anti-US cause.  I think that many of the Taliban would leave the US alone if we left their country, they do not intend to attack the US;  but there is an element in Afghanistan/Pakistan that is more extremist.  I think we should go after the hard core extremists, not that whole Taliban movement.  A military approach to eliminate the Taliban completely is questionable.  Obama is in a fix regarding the Afghanistan war; no matter what he decides, escalation, withdrawal, or to maintain current troop
 levels, it is politically risky

Building schools and hiring teachers for all youth in Afghanistan/Pakistan would in the long run do more good than a military approach, in my opinion, unless, perhaps, the military approach is an all out invasion and occupation, 500,000 troops or more, to completely dominate that region, and this would mean invading Pakistan.  Of course the Taliban would oppose educating all youth with a western style education, especially women.  The Madrassas are training extremists at this moment ( http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2009/08_pakistan_ali.aspx ).  So no option is easy.  And would the US public support a huge escalation of the Afghanistan war?  I don't think so.  

One of bin Laden's goals in the 9/11 attack was to push the US to overextend itself in military campaigns against Islamic nations.  Michael Scheuer, a CIA veteran with 22 years service, who ran the Counterterrorist Center's bin Laden station from 1996 to 1999, called the invasion of Iraq "A Christmas gift to bin Laden."

Imperial Hubris by Michael Scheuer

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Jump to: navigation, search
Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror (Brassey's, 2004; ISBN 1-57488-849-8) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris

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Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't like having to defend Reagan, but. . . 

The Taliban from Afghanistan in the 1980s are not the same as the Taliban of Pakistan in the 2000s. 

The Afghanistan Taliban was a group formed to fight off the USSR, which at the time, was bombing them and killing many thousands of innocent villagers.. The USA was enemies with the USSR and helped Afghanistan to stop the USSR from invading their country.

I don't know if the picture is real or not. But it is not the same Taliban as the one we know as terrorists in Pakistan. 

Sunil is correct about the origins of the quote;

"Battling the Cuban-backed Sandinistas, the Contras were, according to Reagan, 'the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers.' Under the so-called Reagan Doctrine, the CIA trained and assisted this and other anti-Communist insurgencies worldwide." 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html

Donovan Arnold

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com> wrote:

From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*
To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 8:44 PM 

Sunil,

I'm not sure if that pic was photo shopped or not, but it really doesn't matter, as "good friends" and "allies"  are always painted in a rosey light at the time no matter how bad they turn out to be in fact.
For instance, our good friend and ally during WWII, the Soviet Union, had far more people  in concentration camps and caused far more deaths than the Nazi's ever thought of, but at the time, they were on "our" side.

And since most history of wars is written by the "winners", you tend to get a really warped idea of what really went on unless you're willing to delve into it.  I'll give you a good example to try. Next time you run into (not literally) a HS student, ask him or her when WWII begin, I'll bet you a lunch that they tell you, if they tell you anything at all, that it was December 7th, 1941. Few realize or are taught that the war started 1 September 1939 with the invasion of Poland, and then two weeks later, the Nazi Allies, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east.  How many people realize that Auschwitz  was set up not to house those of the Jewish faith, but was established to contain the Polish intelligencia? And while we bemoan the Nazi execution of around 84 US soldiers at Malmédy  during the battle of the Bulge,  we ignore the exceution of 21,768 Polish soldiers, educators and soldiers at Katyn by  the Soviets! We went so far as to deny
 the proof that was provided by the International Red Cross  at the time, because by the time the atrocity was discovered, the Soviets were our allies!

Wayne 

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Wayne,

I believe Reagan said that about the Contras, not the Taliban.  Haven't Googled it, but I'd bet a beer or two.

I think he was wrong on that, though.

Sunil

> From: bear at moscow.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:55:00 -0700
> Subject: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*
> 
> 
> 
> 
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