[Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time S

Tue Oct 20 15:04:04 PDT 2009

Read the piece "Blowback" I referenced in my previous post in this thread by
Chalmers Johnson from "The Nation."

It is misleading to say that the Taliban the US supported to overthrow the
Soviets are not the same Taliban that inspired the invasion of Afghanistan
to weed out the Islamic extremists associated with 9/11, or the Taliban of
2009.  Osama bin Laden and associates were supported by the CIA to fight the
Soviets in Afghanistan, and it is entirely possible that bin Laden remains
protected somewhere in Afghanistan or Pakistan by those sympathetic to his
anti-US cause.  I think that many of the Taliban would leave the US alone if
we left their country, they do not intend to attack the US;  but there is an
element in Afghanistan/Pakistan that is more extremist.  I think we should
go after the hard core extremists, not that whole Taliban movement.  A
military approach to eliminate the Taliban completely is questionable.
Obama is in a fix regarding the Afghanistan war; no matter what he decides,
escalation, withdrawal, or to maintain current troop levels, it is
politically risky

Building schools and hiring teachers for all youth in Afghanistan/Pakistan
would in the long run do more good than a military approach, in my opinion,
unless, perhaps, the military approach is an all out invasion and
occupation, 500,000 troops or more, to completely dominate that region, and
this would mean invading Pakistan.  Of course the Taliban would oppose
educating all youth with a western style education, especially women.  The
Madrassas are training extremists at this moment (
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2009/08_pakistan_ali.aspx ).  So no option
is easy.  And would the US public support a huge escalation of the
Afghanistan war?  I don't think so.

One of bin Laden's goals in the 9/11 attack was to push the US to overextend
itself in military campaigns against Islamic nations.  Michael
Scheuer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer>,
a CIA <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA> veteran with 22 years service, who
ran the Counterterrorist
Center<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterterrorist_Center>'s
bin Laden <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden> station from 1996
to 1999, called the invasion of Iraq "A Christmas gift to bin Laden."
 Imperial Hubris by Michael Scheuer From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris#column-one>,
search <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris#searchInput>

*Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror* (Brassey's,
2004; ISBN 1-57488-849-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1574888498>)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris

------------------------------------------
Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   I don't like having to defend Reagan, but. . .
>
> The Taliban from Afghanistan in the 1980s are not the same as the Taliban
> of Pakistan in the 2000s.
>
> The Afghanistan Taliban was a group formed to fight off the USSR, which at
> the time, was bombing them and killing many thousands of innocent villagers.
> The USA was enemies with the USSR and helped Afghanistan to stop the USSR
> from invading their country.
>
> I don't know if the picture is real or not. But it is not the same Taliban
> as the one we know as terrorists in Pakistan.
>
> Sunil is correct about the origins of the quote;
>
>
> "Battling the Cuban-backed Sandinistas, the *Contras *were, according to
> Reagan, *'the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers.*' Under the
> so-called Reagan Doctrine, the CIA trained and assisted this and other
> anti-Communist insurgencies worldwide."
>
>
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html
>
>  Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Tue, 10/20/09, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the
> time *S*
> To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 8:44 PM
>
>
>  Sunil,
>
> I'm not sure if that pic was photo shopped or not, but it really doesn't
> matter, as "good friends" and "allies"  are always painted in a rosey light
> at the time no matter how bad they turn out to be in fact.
> For instance, our good friend and ally during WWII, the Soviet Union, had
> far more people  in concentration camps and caused far more deaths than the
> Nazi's ever thought of, but at the time, they were on "our" side.
>
> And since most history of wars is written by the "winners", you tend to get
> a really warped idea of what really went on unless you're willing to delve
> into it.  I'll give you a good example to try. Next time you run into (not
> literally) a HS student, ask him or her when WWII begin, I'll bet you a
> lunch that they tell you, if they tell you anything at all, that it was
> December 7th, 1941. Few realize or are taught that the war started 1
> September 1939 with the invasion of Poland, and then two weeks later, the
> Nazi Allies, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east.  How many people
> realize that Auschwitz  was set up not to house those of the Jewish faith,
> but was established to contain the Polish intelligencia? And while we
> bemoan the Nazi execution of around 84 US soldiers at Malmédy  during the
> battle of the Bulge,  we ignore the exceution of 21,768 Polish soldiers,
> educators and soldiers at Katyn by  the Soviets! We went so far as to deny
> the proof that was provided by the International Red Cross  at the time,
> because by the time the atrocity was discovered, the Soviets were our
> allies!
>
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Wayne,
>
> I believe Reagan said that about the Contras, not the Taliban.  Haven't
> Googled it, but I'd bet a beer or two.
>
> I think he was wrong on that, though.
>
> Sunil
>
> > From: bear at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:55:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time
> *S*
> >
> >
> >
> >
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[Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time S