<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Ted,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for posting the thoughtful article. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am sure many of the soldiers, including UBL, that fought against the USSR were the Generals and Officers of today's Afghans Army and the Taliban, just as soldiers of WWI were officers in WWII, and soldiers in the Mexican-US War were officers in the Civil War. However, they are not the same entities more than twenty years later. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am sure UBL is being protected. otherwise he would be dead now, if he isn't already. I don't think the US will kill him. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree that building schools and hospitals would do more than the military for winning the peace. However, I don't think our military should be doing that. It should simply eliminate military threats. I believe neutral charity organizations should be building schools, hospitals, shelters, and libraries. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 10/20/09, Ted Moffett <I><starbliss@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Ted <SPAN>Moffett</SPAN> <starbliss@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*<BR>To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com><BR>Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, "Wayne Price" <bear@moscow.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 10:04 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1565162634>
<DIV>Read the piece "Blowback" I referenced in my previous post in this thread by Chalmers Johnson from "The Nation." </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is misleading to say that the Taliban the US supported to overthrow the Soviets are not the same Taliban that inspired the invasion of Afghanistan to weed out the Islamic extremists associated with 9/11, or the Taliban of 2009. Osama bin Laden and associates were supported by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, and it is entirely possible that bin Laden remains protected somewhere in Afghanistan or Pakistan by those sympathetic to his anti-US cause. I think that many of the Taliban would leave the US alone if we left their country, they do not intend to attack the US; but there is an element in Afghanistan/Pakistan that is more extremist. I think we should go after the hard core extremists, not that whole Taliban movement. A military approach to eliminate the Taliban completely is questionable. Obama is in a fix regarding the Afghanistan war; no matter what he decides, escalation,
withdrawal, or to maintain current troop levels, it is politically risky</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Building schools and hiring teachers for all youth in Afghanistan/Pakistan would in the long run do more good than a military approach, in my opinion, unless, perhaps, the military approach is an all out invasion and occupation, 500,000 troops or more, to completely dominate that region, and this would mean invading Pakistan. Of course the Taliban would oppose educating all youth with a western style education, especially women. The Madrassas are training extremists at this moment ( <A href="http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2009/08_pakistan_ali.aspx" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2009/08_pakistan_ali.aspx</A> ). So no option is easy. And would the US public support a huge escalation of the Afghanistan war? I don't think so. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One of bin Laden's goals in the 9/11 attack was to push the US to overextend itself in military campaigns against Islamic nations. <A title="Michael Scheuer" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Michael Scheuer</A>, a <A class=mw-redirect title=CIA href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA" rel=nofollow target=_blank>CIA</A> veteran with 22 years service, who ran the <A title="Counterterrorist Center" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterterrorist_Center" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Counterterrorist Center</A>'s <A title="Osama bin Laden" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden" rel=nofollow target=_blank>bin Laden</A> station from 1996 to 1999, called the invasion of Iraq "A Christmas gift to bin Laden."</DIV>
<DIV>
<H1 id=firstHeading class=firstHeading>Imperial Hubris by Michael Scheuer</H1>
<DIV id=bodyContent>
<H3 id=siteSub>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</H3>
<DIV id=contentSub></DIV>
<DIV id=jump-to-nav>Jump to: <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris#column-one" rel=nofollow target=_blank>navigation</A>, <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris#searchInput" rel=nofollow target=_blank>search</A></DIV>
<DIV><I><B>Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror</B></I> (Brassey's, 2004; <A class="internal mw-magiclink-isbn" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1574888498" rel=nofollow target=_blank>ISBN 1-57488-849-8</A>) </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV>I don't like having to defend Reagan, but. . . </DIV>
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<DIV>The Taliban from Afghanistan in the 1980s are not the same as the Taliban of Pakistan in the 2000s. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Afghanistan Taliban was a group formed to fight off the USSR, which at the time, was bombing them and killing many thousands of innocent villagers. The USA was enemies with the USSR and helped Afghanistan to stop the USSR from invading their country.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't know if the picture is real or not. But it is not the same Taliban as the one we know as terrorists in Pakistan. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sunil is correct about the origins of the quote;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<P align=left>"Battling the Cuban-backed Sandinistas, the <STRONG>Contras </STRONG>were, according to Reagan, <STRONG>'the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers.</STRONG>' Under the so-called Reagan Doctrine, the CIA trained and assisted this and other anti-Communist insurgencies worldwide."
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<P align=left><A href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Donovan Arnold<BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 10/20/09, Wayne Price <I><<A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Wayne Price <<A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*<BR>To: "Sunil <SPAN><SPAN>Ramalingam</SPAN></SPAN>" <<A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</A>><BR>Cc: "vision 2020" <<A href="http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow..com</A>><BR>Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 8:44 PM
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<DIV>Sunil,</DIV>
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<DIV>I'm not sure if that pic was photo shopped or not, but it really doesn't matter, as "good friends" and "allies" are always painted in a rosey light at the time no matter how bad they turn out to be in fact.</DIV>
<DIV>For instance, our good friend and ally during WWII, the Soviet Union, had far more people in concentration camps and caused far more deaths than the Nazi's ever thought of, but at the time, they were on "our" side.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>And since most history of wars is written by the "winners", you tend to get a really warped idea of what really went on unless you're willing to delve into it. I'll give you a good example to try. Next time you run into (not literally) a HS student, ask him or her when WWII begin, I'll bet you a lunch that they tell you, if they tell you anything at all, that it was December 7th, 1941. Few realize or are taught that the war started 1 September 1939 with the invasion of Poland, and then two weeks later, the Nazi Allies, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east. How many people realize that <SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Auschwitz</SPAN> was set up not to house those of the Jewish faith, but was established to contain the Polish <SPAN>intelligencia</SPAN>? And while we bemoan the Nazi execution of around 84 US soldiers at <SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px;
FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">Malmédy during the battle of the Bulge, we ignore the exceution of 21,768 Polish soldiers, educators and soldiers at Katyn by the Soviets! We went so far as to deny the proof that was provided by the International Red Cross at the time, because by the time the atrocity was discovered, the Soviets were our allies!</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV>Wayne </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Wayne,<BR><BR>I believe Reagan said that about the Contras, not the Taliban. Haven't Googled it, but I'd bet a beer or two.<BR><BR>I think he was wrong on that, though.<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR>> From:<SPAN> </SPAN><A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>bear@moscow.com</A><BR>> To:<SPAN> </SPAN><A href="http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:55:00 -0700<BR>> Subject: [Vision2020] Well, it really seemed like a good idea at the time *S*<BR>><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>serving the communities of the Palouse
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