[Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for Starting Work
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Tue Mar 10 19:59:28 PDT 2009
"Since there are plenty of places that already have all the shopping
amenities available, it seems like if someone is dissatisfied with what the
Palouse has to offer, they should make a change for themselves, rather than
forcing everybody else to live with these developments and the consequences
they will cause."
*ATTENTION RESIDENTS OF THE PALOUSE*
Garrett Clevenger, bug farmer and alleged musician has now arrived in our neck of the woods and has found it good! We may now trap this fly in amber lest he be discomfited.
Seriously, are you actually suggesting that it would be better that life long residents of the area leave rather than you having to endure a minor change to the little paradise that you and only you have managed to discover?
Would you be so good as to provide for us a list of businesses and the locations where they might exist that would meet with your approval? Clearly those of us who have lived, worked, and owned property here and have brought the area up to the standard that you find so favorable are no longer up to the task.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for Starting Work
>
> Donovan writes:
>
> "I am not complacent Garrett. Quiet the opposite. I actively support Wal-Mart. I like Wal-Mart and what it does for people. It gives higher wages and jobs to people. It creates better working standards for poor production workers. It gives a higher standard of living for 1/2 the country."
>
>
> Complacent-pleased, esp. with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation, etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied:
>
> I would say someone who is a walmart fanatic, unwilling or unable to see the negative affects they have on the whole, is complacent about walmart. It makes me wonder if Donovan owns stock in walmart, because if you've seen one of their shareholder meetings, you'll know it does have a religious fervor flavor. They think they are doing the best thing, and making lots of money on top. They probably think they do no wrong.
>
> Perhaps I'm an anti-walmart fanatic, unable to see that walmart in whole is a great thing. Unfortunately, being a cynic, I have my doubts about that.
>
> Perhaps I'm not as broad minded as Donovan thinks he is, and thus I am just as complacent and unable to see the bigger picture, but I do think I have a good understanding of human nature. People tend to do what they want to do, regardless of how that affects other people. Thus the need for regulations and safeguards against harmful affects.
>
> Walmart is the dominating retail force, and with their power it seems they do more harm than good. Just the fact that they probably will help drive down wages, and labor and environmental standards in the US, seems like that should cause pause, especially for people who are concerned about illegal labor in the US and the environment. It seems there is more of chance that US businesses, in order to compete, will hire illegals in order to pay people comparable wages as walmart pays to its foreign workers making their cheap stuff.
>
> I don't see why the Waltons and Walmarts shareholders need to rake in so much money, when they could be paying their workers more instead. Yes, I understand capitalism and know that is unlikely under walmart's corporate model, but that does not mean it would be impossible to spread that wealth out more.
>
> Donovan and I see this issue completely different. I grew up in a big city, he grew up here. I don't think he fully appreciates the value of the Palouse as is, and sees more value in letting superwalmart and Hawkins have their way. Whether that makes one of us more narrow minded than the other is irrelevant. The facts are what should matter.
>
> Once superwalmart or Hawkins are here, they are not going away. This place will be forever changed for everybody. Since there are plenty of places that already have all the shopping amenities available, it seems like if someone is dissatisfied with what the Palouse has to offer, they should make a change for themselves, rather than forcing everybody else to live with these developments and the consequences they will cause.
>
> I want to end this by saying that for Donovan to imply that I hate my neighbors seems to be a rather strong charge. I don't think I hate anybody. I can disagree with people, and criticize them for making bad decisions, and I can strongly defend Idaho by trying to prevent another state from using its water, but I think I'm open minded enough to know I don't know everything. I'm willing to listen and will change my mind if it seems reasonable.
>
> Him implying I hate our neighbors in Washington would be like me saying he hates Moscow businesses because of his willingness to facilitate out of state competitors. I assume he doesn't hate them, even though it seems his view goes against the interests of Moscow's businesses.
>
> gclev
>
> --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for Starting Work
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, garrettmc at verizon.net
>> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:10 AM
>> Garrett writes:
>>
>> "If Walmart didn't do what they do, others would
>> jump in because of the complacency of people like
>> Donovan."
>>
>> I am not complacent Garrett. Quiet the opposite. I actively
>> support Wal-Mart. I like Wal-Mart and what it does for
>> people. It gives higher wages and jobs to people. It creates
>> better working standards for poor production workers. It
>> gives a higher standard of living for 1/2 the country.
>>
>> I know you don't see it that way. But the reality is,
>> Wal-Mart pays a higher wage than Win-Co. It highers people
>> that would otherwise be unemployed. It offers lower prices
>> so poor families can afford to have things they would never
>> otherwise have, such as unused clothing and needed
>> medications.
>>
>> I can tell that you have a very limited understanding of
>> how the market place works. You don't understand why
>> Wal-Mart cannot raise its wages. You don't understand
>> how profit and production works. You have a narrow view of
>> things.
>>
>> You can hate your neighbors, and deny them water. But I
>> don't think you will be successful in stopping you
>> neighbor from getting water, or from others helping others
>> and improving the quality of life for everyone, as Wal-Mart
>> does.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Donovan
>>
>> --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Garrett Clevenger
>> <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
>> From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for Starting
>> Work
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>> Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 6:03 PM
>>
>> Donovan writes:
>>
>> "I am not aware of any job that Moscow is willing to
>> accept unless it is
>> not supported by taxes."
>>
>>
>> I'm not quite sure how to interpret that, but it seems
>> like it would be an
>> exaggeration any way you might read it.
>>
>> Yeah, Donovan, I hate jobs. Nobody should work. We all
>> should just do nothing,
>> and wait for Walmart to bail us out.
>>
>>
>> But seriously...
>>
>> Walmart is just the biggest exploiter. Obviously the way
>> things are set up with
>> trade laws and the like, corporations are given more value
>> over people, and are
>> basically able to do what they want if they convince the
>> powers that be how good
>> they are. If Walmart didn't do what they do, others
>> would jump in because of
>> the complacency of people like Donovan. I'm sure
>> Walmart does some good, but
>> I doubt it outweighs the negative effect they have.
>>
>> You have every right to spend your money at Walmart. That
>> doesn't mean
>> those of us who are concerned about the Walmart affect are
>> going to roll over
>> and let them build where ever they want. It seems that
>> those who do speak out
>> probably will make Walmart do more good stuff than if
>> nobody said anything, at
>> the very least.
>>
>> The Waltons could easily raise the salaries of their
>> employees, instead of
>> raking it in themselves. After all, its their employees who
>> keep their operation
>> going. It reminds me of WSU's President Floyd who makes
>> over $600,000 per
>> year, while the people who do the work to keep WSU going
>> make a whole lot less,
>> and have to worry about salary freezes and job cuts.
>> It's totally out of
>> balance.
>>
>> Walmart is responsible for about 10% of the US trade
>> deficit with China.
>> "Wal-Mart alone is responsible for the loss of nearly
>> 200,000 U.S. jobs due
>> to its own growing trade deficits with China" from
>> http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/ib235/ (all kinds of
>> interesting info is
>> found there)
>>
>> The more we import, the more jobs we lose. That's the
>> bottom line. You get
>> more cheap stuff (with a higher probability that it's
>> toxic), but you drive
>> down wages in the US while losing the manufacturing base.
>> That seems incredibly
>> short-sighted.
>>
>> So I could say Walmart promoters hate good-paying American
>> jobs and want us all
>> to be paid meager wages, but I'm sure that would be an
>> exageration, too.
>>
>> I don't blame Walmart for what they are doing. They are
>> just using
>> capitalism and the political system to become more
>> profitable. Shareholders are
>> responsible for steering their behavior, but it is the
>> people who shop at
>> Walmart who in essence vote to support Walmart, and give
>> them a green light to
>> continue to grow in what seems like at any cost.
>>
>> The economic fiasco we face didn't start in a vacuum.
>> It's all a
>> reflection of living beyond our means, and specific trade
>> policies that tilted
>> the balance towards the rich. It's consumers, though,
>> who drove it home, and
>> now everybody will pay. Promoting Walmart will only make
>> things worse.
>>
>> gclev
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Donovan Arnold
>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Donovan Arnold
>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for
>> Starting Work
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com, garrettmc at verizon.net
>> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 5:44 PM
>> > Garrett,
>> >
>> > Wal-Mart isn't exploiting anyone anymore than
>> anyone
>> > else. All your crap is made in China, not just the
>> stuff you
>> > pull off the Wal-Mart shelf. Wal-Mart doesn't
>> pollute
>> > anymore than any other business. Wal-mart pays the
>> same or
>> > better than other retailers.
>> >
>> > The fact that Wal-Mart sales are increasing as people
>> get
>> > poor should tell you how vital is in providing jobs
>> and
>> > services to the poor and disadvantaged than anyone
>> else.
>> >
>> > Wal-Mart isn't perfect. I don't think any
>> business
>> > is. But it doesn't do anything its competition
>> > doesn't do. It does lots of good things as well,
>> such as
>> > providing jobs, affordable goods, jobs for people
>> others
>> > won't hire, it has drastically reduced the costs
>> of over
>> > 200 prescription medications to $4, it helped find
>> 1000s of
>> > missing and lost children, It donates billions to
>> charitable
>> > causes. It doesn't waste millions on luxury for
>> > managers.
>> >
>> > Tryng to blame Wal-Mart for Chinese labor laws and US
>> trade
>> > agreements with China is misguided. If Wal-Mart
>> stopped
>> > buying from China the conditions in China would
>> worsen, not
>> > better, and Wal-Mart's competitors would gladly
>> use
>> > those same factories to eventually drive Wal-Mart out
>> of
>> > business. Wal-Mart is working within the system that
>> the US
>> > and China has created.
>> >
>> > Your opposition to Wal-Mart has not stopped them. It
>> has
>> > only just moved the jobs, taxes, and resources to
>> Pullman,
>> > because they know Wal-Mart is actually more of a
>> blessing
>> > than curse despite its problems.
>> >
>> > I think it is the intention of some of Moscow's
>> > residents to drive all the jobs it can over to Pullman
>> or
>> > out of Moscow. I am not aware of any job that Moscow
>> is
>> > willing to accept unless it is not supported by taxes.
>>
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Donovan
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Garrett Clevenger
>> > <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
>> > From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Walmart Gets Nod for Starting
>> Work
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 11:00 AM
>> >
>> > Donovan satirizes:
>> >
>> > "Now is the time to demand impossible standards
>> of
>> > employers, and be as
>> > picky as possible about the kind of jobs we
>> want."
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, let's bend over backwards for the Waltons.
>> Instead
>> > of them relying on
>> > cheap labor in China, let's give them cheap labor
>> here
>> > in Moscow! We need
>> > the jobs, after all, and who cares if we pollute the
>> water
>> > manufacturing cheap
>> > stuff. At least Americans won't put toxins in
>> stuff
>> > they'll sell to
>> > other Americans, right? We'll keep stuff even
>> cheaper
>> > saving on fuel costs
>> > since we won't have to transport it half way round
>> the
>> > world.
>> >
>> > Yes, I want Walmart to keep growing and growing until
>> all
>> > that's left are
>> > Walmart stores because their quality is sooo good, I
>> > don't really want
>> > accountability, and I love the Waltons so much I think
>> they
>> > deserve a few more
>> > billion dollars. Who needs to make more than a couple
>> bucks
>> > a day, anyway?
>> >
>> >
>> > But seriously...
>> >
>> > Walmarts sales are up 6.5% compareded to last year.
>> The
>> > irony is, as people get
>> > poorer, they need cheaper things, and they're less
>> > likely to care why things
>> > are so cheap, and who's making the majority of the
>> $$$.
>> > A terrible downward
>> > spiral.
>> >
>> > Many people don't know or care that the family who
>> owns
>> > Walmart is one of
>> > the richest families on the planet. As of last
>> September, 4
>> > of the top 10 riches
>> > Americans are Waltons on Forbes Riches Americans list,
>> with
>> > a total net worth of
>> > almost $100 billion.
>> >
>> > According to
>> >
>> http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_Jim-Walton_JI38.html
>> >
>> > Wal-Mart is the world's largest retailer: 7,300
>> stores,
>> > 2 million employees
>> > serve 200 million customers. Sales: $378 billion
>> >
>> >
>> > Walmart may provide jobs in their ever-expanding
>> business,
>> > and insure we have
>> > cheap stuff, but at what cost?
>> >
>> > In order for the Waltons to become super-billionaires,
>> most
>> > other people are
>> > losing out. There is a finite amount of wealth and
>> > resources, so to think that
>> > the Waltons could amass such wealth without causing
>> other
>> > people to loss money
>> > is idiotic.
>> >
>> > Someone has to pay for their billions, and while they
>> may
>> > provide cheap stuff
>> > for the poor people they exploit, they are causing an
>> > unsustainable trade
>> > deficit supporting foreign companies that have lax
>> labor
>> > and environmental laws
>> > who sell to Walmart toxic toys and food that Walmart
>> then
>> > pushes on to poor
>> > Americans who in turn help cause the downfall of
>> smaller,
>> > family-owned and
>> > independent stores, who can't sell as cheap stuff
>> > because they don't
>> > have the buying power, they actually try to pay their
>> > employees a living wage
>> > and they don't have the political clout to gain
>> > tax-breaks from towns so
>> > desperate to create jobs and have cheap stuff that
>> they are
>> > willing to sacrifice
>> > downtowns to the holy Walton empire who will then be
>> able
>> > to hire Americans
>> > because in order to compete with foreign labor we now
>> are
>> > willing to work for
>> > nothing in polluted environments. Who needs high
>> standards,
>> > anyway!
>> >
>> > I can accept that if you don't know that the
>> Waltons
>> > are exploiting people
>> > to make their billions you might support them, but if
>> > you're smart enough to
>> > put two and two together and give your money to
>> Walmart,
>> > you are culpable in
>> > allowing Walmart to continue to drive American wages
>> down,
>> > and possibly lower
>> > our labor and environmental standards in order to
>> compete.
>> >
>> > It seems rather selfish that in order to maintain
>> access to
>> > addictive cheap
>> > stuff some would sacrifice the overall security of our
>> > country. Thus why the
>> > rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
>> >
>> > Fight for the right of poor people to have access to
>> cheap
>> > stuff with one hand,
>> > drive the stake into the heart of poor people with the
>> > other. How ironic!
>> >
>> > Now is exactly the time to start building the
>> foundation of
>> > a new economic
>> > model, not continue to pour trillions into what
>> obviously
>> > is a discredited
>> > system with Walmart leading the charge. (Charge it to
>> > future generations, that
>> > is...)
>> >
>> > gclev
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>>
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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