[Vision2020] Who was Bucer?
bear at moscow.com
bear at moscow.com
Sat Jun 20 13:45:09 PDT 2009
For a good, quick bio of Bucer try this site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bucer
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> Martin Bucer, Reformed theologian in, I think, the 1600s.
>
> Keely
> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> To: v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm
>> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:36:07 -0700
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CORRECTION: Bucer's (was RE: More Banning?)
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification. Is it Bucer's? If so, who is Bucer?
>>
>> Joe Campbell
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2009, at 10:54 AM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Joe et al,
>> >
>> > It seems that perhaps the whole Bucer's thing is a bit less straight-
>> > forward than I was informed back then (anyone else remember the
>> > cigar appreciation session that was to be offered in 2004?).
>> >
>> > At the time, I was informed in no uncertain terms by someone within
>> > the Kirk who I had no reason to disbelieve that women wouldn't be
>> > welcomed at the class. That was it for me -- I've never been one to
>> > socially impose where I'm apparently not wanted. It became a moot
>> > point, though, because I believe the class was cancelled.
>> >
>> > HOWEVER, in response to my post last evening, I've heard from
>> > someone who says that it's ***cigarette*** smoking that's not
>> > allowed in the smoking room at Bucer's, ***not women***.
>> >
>> > So, perhaps there was some confusion back in 2004. Perhaps the
>> > admonition I received was on the assumption that I'd be wanting to
>> > smoke cigarettes at a cigar class?
>> >
>> > The person who contacted me in response to my post indicates having
>> > actually smoked cigars with women in the smoke room, so that more
>> > recent experience shouldn't be discounted.
>> >
>> > In any case, I don't want to leave an incorrect impression about
>> > what's allowed and what's not in the smoking room at Bucer's because
>> > I don't know! I implicitly trusted the words of wisdom I was given
>> > back in 2004, but perhaps that was a mistake or maybe there was some
>> > confusion back then.
>> >
>> > For those interested, I suggest contacting Bucer's directly for the
>> > current policy rather than relying on information I was given over
>> > four years ago that's now been contradicted.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Saundra Lund
>> > Moscow, ID
>> >
>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>> > to do nothing.
>> > ~ Edmund Burke
>> >
>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through
>> > life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
>> > reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
>> > permission of the author.*****
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Joe Campbell [mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:09 AM
>> > To: Saundra Lund
>> > Cc: <bear at moscow.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?
>> >
>> > Good points, Saundra. I didn't know that Bucers restricted women from
>> > the smoking room. Does anyone know if they still have that policy? I
>> > haven't been there since Michael Metzler left town.
>> >
>> > Joe Campbell
>> >
>> > On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:46 PM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Wayne,
>> >>
>> >> You wrote:
>> >> "What do you think about the way Bucers has their set up?"
>> >>
>> >> I'm afraid I can't offer any comment because women aren't allowed
>> >> inside the
>> >> smoking room at Bucers, or at least we weren't when I tried to go a
>> >> few
>> >> years back. <shaking my head> It's such a ludicrous thing to type
>> >> in the
>> >> 21st century: no women allowed. Frankly, if the City Council wants
>> >> to
>> >> stick its nose in such matters as mandating smoking bans, I'd be far
>> >> more
>> >> interested in the cause had they addressed the gender discrimination
>> >> by
>> >> Bucers. But, that's a different issue.
>> >>
>> >> I really have no dog in this fight -- while I’m a smoker, I rarel
>> >> y v
>> >> isit our
>> >> local bars -- but I do have a couple of comments <g>.
>> >>
>> >> First, I think it's a stunningly stupid move on the part of the City
>> >> to even
>> >> consider such a move during tough economic times. Have we not
>> >> enough dark
>> >> business space already?
>> >>
>> >> Second, I really think the city should get an adequate handle on
>> >> things
>> >> currently on its plate before taking on new enforcement
>> >> responsibilities.
>> >> For instance, let's talk snow removal enforcement as just one
>> >> example :-)
>> >> Yes, we've had a couple of hard winters in a row, but even in mild
>> >> winters,
>> >> there are sidewalks that aren't shoveled for weeks on end, which
>> >> presents a
>> >> serious public safety hazard that is ignored by the city. Streets
>> >> can't be
>> >> adequately plowed because the city refuses to address the issue of
>> >> cars left
>> >> on the streets for weeks at a time. The resulting narrow roads are
>> >> a safety
>> >> hazard for all who travel on them, including emergency vehicles.
>> >> So. Why
>> >> on earth the city thinks it should take on a smoking ban in bars to
>> >> the
>> >> detriment of small businesses when it is woefully inadequate at
>> >> enforcing
>> >> rules already on the books is beyond me.
>> >>
>> >> Third, for those who object to smoke in bars, for the love of God,
>> >> COME UP
>> >> WITH YOUR OWN ALTERNATIVES rather than trying to force existing
>> >> business
>> >> owners to cater to your needs. Isn't that exactly the kind of
>> >> situation the
>> >> free market should address. Certainly, there are smoke-free bars, so
>> >> patronize them. They don't have pool tables? Then convince an
>> >> investor --
>> >> or band together yourselves -- to start up a business to suit your
>> >> needs.
>> >> Granted, you wouldn't have a liquor license immediately, but had you
>> >> tried
>> >> to solve your own problem rather than whine and force government to
>> >> ram your
>> >> desires to eliminate lawful behavior that will likely cause some
>> >> local
>> >> businesses to fail, you could have had exactly what you want by
>> >> now. Lord
>> >> knows there's plenty of dark retail spaces you could check into, and
>> >> had you
>> >> attempted to solve your problem rather than getting government to do
>> >> it for
>> >> you, you could have a nice setting or four that would suit your
>> >> needs rather
>> >> than advocating a ridiculous position that will hurt local business.
>> >>
>> >> Fourth, with respect to Ted's case, I reject it. No one is forcing
>> >> anyone
>> >> to work in bars where there's second-hand smoke exposure. For those
>> >> who
>> >> choose to not expose themselves to second-hand smoke, then DON'T
>> >> APPLY FOR
>> >> JOBS WHERE SMOKING IS ALLOWED! Indeed, I find it incredibly
>> >> hypocritical
>> >> that some of those complaining about second-hand smoke exposure
>> >> explicitly
>> >> choose to work in bars rather than smoke-free restaurants or other
>> >> smoke-free settings precisely because they can make better tips in
>> >> bars, and
>> >> a good portion of those tips come from smokers. I've yet to see
>> >> anyone who
>> >> objects to working in an environment where there's second-hand smoke
>> >> exposure refuse to take tips from smokers. There's an ethical
>> >> position for
>> >> you :-)
>> >>
>> >> Fifth, what's next? I think <tongue in cheek> we should outlaw the
>> >> sales &
>> >> operation of inefficient motor vehicles in Moscow because they are
>> >> bad for
>> >> the environment, which means they are bad for all of us. What about
>> >> donorcycles -- we should all be aware of the significant impact on
>> >> health
>> >> care costs for all of us from those who choose to ride motorcycles.
>> >> And, if
>> >> we want to talk about health risks, then let's go after restaurants
>> >> that
>> >> serve red meat because you'd have to live in a cave to not know that
>> >> the
>> >> consumption of red meat is linked to lots of health problems
>> >> including heart
>> >> disease, which is THE leading cause of death in this country. And,
>> >> what
>> >> about those vegetarian employees working in restaurants with no
>> >> vegetarian
>> >> options?! Quite often, an indirect compensation for restaurant
>> >> employees is
>> >> free or reduced prices on meals while working, yet if the restaurant
>> >> doesn't
>> >> offer any vegetarian options . . . so perhaps we should get the City
>> >> to pass
>> >> a law mandating that ALL restaurants offer vegetarian option. Yeah
>> >> --
>> >> that's the ticket!
>> >>
>> >> Sixth, I don't know Bill Parks, but I will say that I might be more
>> >> sympathetic to his cause had he thrown his weight behind the
>> >> significant
>> >> concerns for Moscow's air quality problem from allowing bonfires in
>> >> neighborhoods. *That* is an issue that affects entire
>> >> neighborhoods . . .
>> >> and the quality of life for people in their own homes and on their
>> >> own
>> >> property, yet I don't recall him addressing that. Instead, he'd
>> >> rather have
>> >> the government address social & the business concerns of others.
>> >>
>> >> If what's been posted is accurate (I don't know if it is), I can't
>> >> imagine
>> >> Mr. Parks would be too happy if Moscow decided to outlaw the sale of
>> >> products manufactured outside the country -- my guess would be he
>> >> would
>> >> vigorously object to local government messing with the legal
>> >> activities of
>> >> the free market in that respect. It's really too bad he fails to
>> >> see the
>> >> correlation . . .
>> >>
>> >> Am I missing something? Isn't any business owner interested able to
>> >> operate
>> >> a bar or tavern where smoking is prohibited??? Again let Parks &
>> >> those who
>> >> share his concern open & operate their own smoke-free venue rather
>> >> than
>> >> trying to get the government to force others' businesses to do
>> >> things His
>> >> way. Isn't that what the free market is supposed to do?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> JMHO,
>> >> Saundra Lund
>> >> Moscow, ID
>> >>
>> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>> >> to do
>> >> nothing.
>> >> ~ Edmund Burke
>> >>
>> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through
>> >> life plus
>> >> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
>> >> outside
>> >> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
>> >> author.*****
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> >> ]
>> >> On Behalf Of bear at moscow.com
>> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 4:22 PM
>> >> To: Ted Moffett
>> >> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ted,
>> >>
>> >> What about something less draconian than a ban? What about a physical
>> >> separation with air exchangers? What do you think about the way
>> >> Bucers has
>> >> their set up?
>> >>
>> >> I can tell you that as a smoker, I am less inclined to compromise
>> >> with
>> >> total bans and advocates of total bans when their interests are up
>> >> for
>> >> consideration later. And I vote. There has to be a middle ground
>> >> somewhere.
>> >>
>> >> And you mention that keeping bars smoke free is a benefit to the
>> >> workers
>> >> in these businesses who need the jobs yet are exposed to second hand
>> >> smoke. In the case here in Moscow, I don't even think the employees
>> >> were
>> >> even asked. Based on the tape I saw of the meeting before city
>> >> council on
>> >> the 18th of May, it was an individual that is a bar customer, and
>> >> from his
>> >> comments, I have to believe he was talking about Mingles. So,
>> >> because he
>> >> doesn't like the smoky atmosphere in Mingles, all of the bars in
>> >> Moscow
>> >> have to ban smoking?
>> >>
>> >> I just think much more research needs to be done to see IF there is a
>> >> problem before the Council passes a ban. The quick, knee jerk
>> >> reaction,
>> >> the simple solution to the problem IF there is one, is to pass a ban.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =======================================================
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>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>> >
>>
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