[Vision2020] CORRECTION: Bucer's (was RE: More Banning?)
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Sat Jun 20 13:39:46 PDT 2009
Martin Bucer, Reformed theologian in, I think, the 1600s.
Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> To: v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm
> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:36:07 -0700
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CORRECTION: Bucer's (was RE: More Banning?)
>
> Thanks for the clarification. Is it Bucer's? If so, who is Bucer?
>
> Joe Campbell
>
> On Jun 20, 2009, at 10:54 AM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Joe et al,
> >
> > It seems that perhaps the whole Bucer's thing is a bit less straight-
> > forward than I was informed back then (anyone else remember the
> > cigar appreciation session that was to be offered in 2004?).
> >
> > At the time, I was informed in no uncertain terms by someone within
> > the Kirk who I had no reason to disbelieve that women wouldn't be
> > welcomed at the class. That was it for me -- I've never been one to
> > socially impose where I'm apparently not wanted. It became a moot
> > point, though, because I believe the class was cancelled.
> >
> > HOWEVER, in response to my post last evening, I've heard from
> > someone who says that it's ***cigarette*** smoking that's not
> > allowed in the smoking room at Bucer's, ***not women***.
> >
> > So, perhaps there was some confusion back in 2004. Perhaps the
> > admonition I received was on the assumption that I'd be wanting to
> > smoke cigarettes at a cigar class?
> >
> > The person who contacted me in response to my post indicates having
> > actually smoked cigars with women in the smoke room, so that more
> > recent experience shouldn't be discounted.
> >
> > In any case, I don't want to leave an incorrect impression about
> > what's allowed and what's not in the smoking room at Bucer's because
> > I don't know! I implicitly trusted the words of wisdom I was given
> > back in 2004, but perhaps that was a mistake or maybe there was some
> > confusion back then.
> >
> > For those interested, I suggest contacting Bucer's directly for the
> > current policy rather than relying on information I was given over
> > four years ago that's now been contradicted.
> >
> >
> >
> > Saundra Lund
> > Moscow, ID
> >
> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
> > to do nothing.
> > ~ Edmund Burke
> >
> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through
> > life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
> > reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
> > permission of the author.*****
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe Campbell [mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:09 AM
> > To: Saundra Lund
> > Cc: <bear at moscow.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?
> >
> > Good points, Saundra. I didn't know that Bucers restricted women from
> > the smoking room. Does anyone know if they still have that policy? I
> > haven't been there since Michael Metzler left town.
> >
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:46 PM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Wayne,
> >>
> >> You wrote:
> >> "What do you think about the way Bucers has their set up?"
> >>
> >> I'm afraid I can't offer any comment because women aren't allowed
> >> inside the
> >> smoking room at Bucers, or at least we weren't when I tried to go a
> >> few
> >> years back. <shaking my head> It's such a ludicrous thing to type
> >> in the
> >> 21st century: no women allowed. Frankly, if the City Council wants
> >> to
> >> stick its nose in such matters as mandating smoking bans, I'd be far
> >> more
> >> interested in the cause had they addressed the gender discrimination
> >> by
> >> Bucers. But, that's a different issue.
> >>
> >> I really have no dog in this fight -- while I’m a smoker, I rarel
> >> y v
> >> isit our
> >> local bars -- but I do have a couple of comments <g>.
> >>
> >> First, I think it's a stunningly stupid move on the part of the City
> >> to even
> >> consider such a move during tough economic times. Have we not
> >> enough dark
> >> business space already?
> >>
> >> Second, I really think the city should get an adequate handle on
> >> things
> >> currently on its plate before taking on new enforcement
> >> responsibilities.
> >> For instance, let's talk snow removal enforcement as just one
> >> example :-)
> >> Yes, we've had a couple of hard winters in a row, but even in mild
> >> winters,
> >> there are sidewalks that aren't shoveled for weeks on end, which
> >> presents a
> >> serious public safety hazard that is ignored by the city. Streets
> >> can't be
> >> adequately plowed because the city refuses to address the issue of
> >> cars left
> >> on the streets for weeks at a time. The resulting narrow roads are
> >> a safety
> >> hazard for all who travel on them, including emergency vehicles.
> >> So. Why
> >> on earth the city thinks it should take on a smoking ban in bars to
> >> the
> >> detriment of small businesses when it is woefully inadequate at
> >> enforcing
> >> rules already on the books is beyond me.
> >>
> >> Third, for those who object to smoke in bars, for the love of God,
> >> COME UP
> >> WITH YOUR OWN ALTERNATIVES rather than trying to force existing
> >> business
> >> owners to cater to your needs. Isn't that exactly the kind of
> >> situation the
> >> free market should address. Certainly, there are smoke-free bars, so
> >> patronize them. They don't have pool tables? Then convince an
> >> investor --
> >> or band together yourselves -- to start up a business to suit your
> >> needs.
> >> Granted, you wouldn't have a liquor license immediately, but had you
> >> tried
> >> to solve your own problem rather than whine and force government to
> >> ram your
> >> desires to eliminate lawful behavior that will likely cause some
> >> local
> >> businesses to fail, you could have had exactly what you want by
> >> now. Lord
> >> knows there's plenty of dark retail spaces you could check into, and
> >> had you
> >> attempted to solve your problem rather than getting government to do
> >> it for
> >> you, you could have a nice setting or four that would suit your
> >> needs rather
> >> than advocating a ridiculous position that will hurt local business.
> >>
> >> Fourth, with respect to Ted's case, I reject it. No one is forcing
> >> anyone
> >> to work in bars where there's second-hand smoke exposure. For those
> >> who
> >> choose to not expose themselves to second-hand smoke, then DON'T
> >> APPLY FOR
> >> JOBS WHERE SMOKING IS ALLOWED! Indeed, I find it incredibly
> >> hypocritical
> >> that some of those complaining about second-hand smoke exposure
> >> explicitly
> >> choose to work in bars rather than smoke-free restaurants or other
> >> smoke-free settings precisely because they can make better tips in
> >> bars, and
> >> a good portion of those tips come from smokers. I've yet to see
> >> anyone who
> >> objects to working in an environment where there's second-hand smoke
> >> exposure refuse to take tips from smokers. There's an ethical
> >> position for
> >> you :-)
> >>
> >> Fifth, what's next? I think <tongue in cheek> we should outlaw the
> >> sales &
> >> operation of inefficient motor vehicles in Moscow because they are
> >> bad for
> >> the environment, which means they are bad for all of us. What about
> >> donorcycles -- we should all be aware of the significant impact on
> >> health
> >> care costs for all of us from those who choose to ride motorcycles.
> >> And, if
> >> we want to talk about health risks, then let's go after restaurants
> >> that
> >> serve red meat because you'd have to live in a cave to not know that
> >> the
> >> consumption of red meat is linked to lots of health problems
> >> including heart
> >> disease, which is THE leading cause of death in this country. And,
> >> what
> >> about those vegetarian employees working in restaurants with no
> >> vegetarian
> >> options?! Quite often, an indirect compensation for restaurant
> >> employees is
> >> free or reduced prices on meals while working, yet if the restaurant
> >> doesn't
> >> offer any vegetarian options . . . so perhaps we should get the City
> >> to pass
> >> a law mandating that ALL restaurants offer vegetarian option. Yeah
> >> --
> >> that's the ticket!
> >>
> >> Sixth, I don't know Bill Parks, but I will say that I might be more
> >> sympathetic to his cause had he thrown his weight behind the
> >> significant
> >> concerns for Moscow's air quality problem from allowing bonfires in
> >> neighborhoods. *That* is an issue that affects entire
> >> neighborhoods . . .
> >> and the quality of life for people in their own homes and on their
> >> own
> >> property, yet I don't recall him addressing that. Instead, he'd
> >> rather have
> >> the government address social & the business concerns of others.
> >>
> >> If what's been posted is accurate (I don't know if it is), I can't
> >> imagine
> >> Mr. Parks would be too happy if Moscow decided to outlaw the sale of
> >> products manufactured outside the country -- my guess would be he
> >> would
> >> vigorously object to local government messing with the legal
> >> activities of
> >> the free market in that respect. It's really too bad he fails to
> >> see the
> >> correlation . . .
> >>
> >> Am I missing something? Isn't any business owner interested able to
> >> operate
> >> a bar or tavern where smoking is prohibited??? Again let Parks &
> >> those who
> >> share his concern open & operate their own smoke-free venue rather
> >> than
> >> trying to get the government to force others' businesses to do
> >> things His
> >> way. Isn't that what the free market is supposed to do?
> >>
> >>
> >> JMHO,
> >> Saundra Lund
> >> Moscow, ID
> >>
> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
> >> to do
> >> nothing.
> >> ~ Edmund Burke
> >>
> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through
> >> life plus
> >> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
> >> outside
> >> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> >> author.*****
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> >> ]
> >> On Behalf Of bear at moscow.com
> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 4:22 PM
> >> To: Ted Moffett
> >> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?
> >>
> >>
> >> Ted,
> >>
> >> What about something less draconian than a ban? What about a physical
> >> separation with air exchangers? What do you think about the way
> >> Bucers has
> >> their set up?
> >>
> >> I can tell you that as a smoker, I am less inclined to compromise
> >> with
> >> total bans and advocates of total bans when their interests are up
> >> for
> >> consideration later. And I vote. There has to be a middle ground
> >> somewhere.
> >>
> >> And you mention that keeping bars smoke free is a benefit to the
> >> workers
> >> in these businesses who need the jobs yet are exposed to second hand
> >> smoke. In the case here in Moscow, I don't even think the employees
> >> were
> >> even asked. Based on the tape I saw of the meeting before city
> >> council on
> >> the 18th of May, it was an individual that is a bar customer, and
> >> from his
> >> comments, I have to believe he was talking about Mingles. So,
> >> because he
> >> doesn't like the smoky atmosphere in Mingles, all of the bars in
> >> Moscow
> >> have to ban smoking?
> >>
> >> I just think much more research needs to be done to see IF there is a
> >> problem before the Council passes a ban. The quick, knee jerk
> >> reaction,
> >> the simple solution to the problem IF there is one, is to pass a ban.
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
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> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >
>
> =======================================================
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